From: joedees@bellsouth.net
Date: Mon Feb 04 2002 - 22:00:40 MST
On 4 Feb 2002 at 21:31, L' Ermit wrote:
> [Joe Dees 1*]
> [url=http://forum.javien.com/XMLmessage.php?id=id::c2pkLDMW-TlVw-Vzwq-Lw0p-BFwfWhMfc05K]"virus:
> Muslim Law Causes Rioting In Nigeria",Joe Dees, Sat 2002-02-02 00:05[/url]
>
> [Hermit 3] I reinserted the above to make it clear what is being discussed
> here. As I have responded at length on the assertions re Iraq
> [url=http://forum.javien.com/XMLmessage.php?id=id::Cl8H8hhQ-U71h-NnQm-SmxD-dlKCSk1tBFI9]"virus:
> Response to Joe Dees. "Is the US a Rogue Nation?",Hermit,Mon 2002-02-04
> 20:58]. As these assertions have little to do with this thread, I will not
> address them here.
>
> <snip>
>
> [Hermit 2] Nigeria has 115 million people, living in an area that can
> support perhaps one third that number comfortably - when there is no
> drought. Perpetual war and poverty means that nothing is stored to get
> through the rough times - even though they are predictable.
>
> [Hermit 2] Nigeria is divided into at least 371 identifiable tribes
> [url]http://www.onlinenigeria.com/tribes/[/url], and these are spread out
> into 36 regional areas. However, four ethnic groups together account for
> over 60% of the country’s total population: the FULANI and HAUSA live mainly
> in the north; the IBO predominate in the southeast and the YORUBA in the
> southwest. These hate one another with an historical passion and if they
> didn't have religious differences, those denying the UTic power of tribalism
> would have to invent other reasons...
>
> [Joe Dees 2] The Fulani and Hausa are mainly Muslim, the Ibo and Yoruba are
> mainly Christian and animist. The Fulani and Hausa have been waging a
> bloody faith-based genocide against the Ibo and Yoruba for some time now.
>
> [Hermit 3] This is assertion, and does not, so far as I can see, proof of
> religious causation. Indeed, claiming genocide (which is ethnic] appears to
> support my position rather than weaken it.
>
It is tribal genocide only to the degree that in different tribes different faiths
predominate, but it is the Muslim tribes that are cooperating with each other in order to
attack the non-Muslim ones, with the stated goal of solidifying an Islamic nation under
sharia law in Nigeria.
>
> [Hermit 2] Do you remember the "other war" while Vietnam was happening? Or
> was America so occupied with Asia that they didn't learn about Africa. Try
> doing a search on Biafra. Then explain what religion had to do with that
> conflict.
>
> [Joe Dees 2] It has been reported that 22 of 24 contemporary shooting
> conflicts in the world involve one or more Muslim countries.
>
> [Hermit 3] I see this as somewhat of a non-sequitur. Islamic countries are
> generally poor countries. But I was not dealing with Islamic countries, I
> was dealing with your assertions about Nigeria. While you assert that the
> conflict in Nigeria is faith-based, I offer the appended article, supporting
> my conclusion that Nigeria is a typical African ethnic conflict.
>
And I answered that above; my message was not a non-sequiter; it was to point out
that statistics do tell, and the *fact* that 11/12ths of contemporary conflicts involve
Muslims in a world with many great civilizations and peoples says a helluva lot about
their inability to play well with others. True, there are exceptions, but, as Aristotle
said, exceptions probe the parameters of the rule by their status as exceptions, and do
not disprove it.
>
> [Hermit 2] The people of Nigeria have fought continuously with one another,
> with short breaks only when they were occupied by others. As with almost any
> fighting in Africa, the fundamental driver is tribal, not religious, not
> political, not even economic. It is only when looking at African warfare (or
> politics) through ignorant eyes, eyes that have been taught that tribalism
> is so non-PC that it should be ignored, that the fundamental tribal hatreds
> are fudged into religion, nationalism, politics, economics, soccer teams
> etc. Which is why people engaging in this level of self-delusion still find
> the wars of Africa "inexplicable" when the grounds change or it appears to
> benefit nobody (as is the case with most of Africa's wars).
> [hr]
> [Hermit 3] This article is from the BBC News Service
> [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_596000/596712.stm[/url]
> accessed 2001-02-04.
>
I wonder how many massive conflicts of this type occurred there prior to the infusion of
Islam into part of that culture...
>
> Biafra: Thirty years on
> By Nigeria correspondent Barnaby Philips
>
> It is 30 years since the end of one of post-independence Africa's first and
> most bloody wars.
>
> The Nigerian civil war not only came close to tearing Africa's most populous
> country apart, it also provoked passions in many other parts of the world,
> particularly in Britain, the former colonial power.
>
> Nigeria became independent in 1960. Like most ex-colonies in the continent,
> its boundaries had been defined quite arbitrarily to demarcate where the
> competing claims of the imperial powers collided.
>
> Consequently Nigeria was composed of semi-autonomous Muslim feudal states in
> the desert north, and once-powerful Christian and animist kingdoms in the
> south and east, which was where the country's only significant source of
> income - oil - was exploited.
>
> Ethnic split
>
And obviously, a religious one.
>
> At independence, Nigeria had a federal constitution comprising three regions
> defined by the principal ethnic groups in the country - the Hausa and Fulani
> in the north, Yoruba in the south-west, and Ibo in the south-east.
>
> The fighting led to famine and chaos
>
> But as the military took over in the mid-1960s, and the economic situation
> worsened, ethnic tensions broke out.
>
> Up to 30,000 Ibos were killed in fighting with Hausas, and around 1million
> refugees fled to their Ibo homeland in the east.
>
> On 30 May, 1967, the head of the Eastern Region, Colonel Emeka Ojukwu,
> unilaterally declared the independent Republic of Biafra.
>
> After initial military gains, the Biafran forces were pushed back.
>
> Over two-and-a-half years later, 1 million civilians had died in fighting
> and from famine.
>
> Photographs of starving children with huge distended stomachs from protein
> deficiency horrified people around the world.
>
> Finally, Biafra was reabsorbed into Nigeria.
>
> Responsibility
>
> Today, Chief Emeka Ojukwu enjoys the role of elder statesman, living in
> comfort in the former Biafran capital, Enugu.
>
> Forgiven by the Nigerian authorities in the early 1980s, he admits to no
> remorse for the events of the civil war.
>
> "At 33 I reacted as a brilliant 33 year old," he says. "At 66 it is my hope
> that if I had to face this I should also confront it as a brilliant 66 year
> old.
>
> "Responsibility for what went on - how can I feel responsible in a situation
> in which I put myself out and saved the people from genocide? No, I don't
> feel responsible at all. I did the best I could."
>
> For the men who fought for the Biafran cause, defeat has been followed by 30
> years of humiliation. The wounded veterans line up in their wheelchairs
> alongside the main roads in Enugu, begging for money from passers-by.
>
> Men like former Sergeant Michael Okafo believe they are being punished for
> fighting on the losing side.
>
> He wants food, he wants to educate his children and he wants shelter. He
> wants to be treated like any other Nigerian.
>
> Exclusion
>
> When the civil war ended, the government promised the Ibo people that there
> would be no victors and no vanquished.
>
> The authorities were desperate to avoid a repetition of the ethnic tensions
> which preceded the war.
>
> Chief Ojukwu believes the Ibos have been largely excluded from power ever
> since and this could cause instability in the future.
>
> "None of the problems that led to the war have been solved yet," he says.
>
> "They are still there. We have a situation creeping towards the type of
> situation that saw the beginning of the war."
>
> British stance
>
> There is plenty of resentment but little talk of secession among the Ibo
> today.
>
> During the war, Mrs Oyibo Adinamadu was a leading women's activist for the
> Biafran cause.
>
> But only a few African countries recognised it as an independent state.
>
> She even travelled to Britain to lobby the then Labour government, which
> refused to meet her.
>
> Instead Britain was a key arms supplier to the federal government, enabling
> it to crush the rebellion, because it believed that Biafran secession would
> create regional instability.
>
> The then British Labour Foreign Secretary, Michael Stewart, agonised over
> this policy.
>
> "It would have been quite easy for me to say: This is going to be difficult
> - let's cut off all connexion with the Nigerian Government," he says now.
>
> "If I'd done that I should have known that I was encouraging in Africa the
> principle of tribal secession - with all the misery that could bring to
> Africa in the future."
>
> Equitable
>
> Today, Mrs Adinamadu thinks that equitable distribution of resources will
> encourage the Ibo of eastern Nigeria to believe in the future of the
> country.
>
> "And if the easterners are treated fairly, and other parts of Nigeria too,
> and you see an equitable handling or distribution of what is available, and
> then of course working to develop and to progress - I think easterners would
> like to stay in Nigeria," she says.
>
> But following Nigeria's recent return to democracy, many of the country's
> diverse peoples, not just the Ibos, are demanding greater autonomy.
>
> Nigeria is a young country. The vast majority of its population is under 30
> years old and only a small proportion have direct memories of the war.
>
> But the causes of the Biafran conflict - ethnic rivalry and mistrust - are
> as relevant today as ever.
>
There will be no equitable distribution as long as the army is comprised if muslim
Hausas. One of their prime sources of tension is that the president is neither a hausa
nor a Muslim. Look for a coup attempt in the near future; the Islam&Hausa-dominated
military will not be able to stomach the civilian rule of a dhimmi for long.
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