From: Jonathan Davis (jon.davis@iomartdsl.com)
Date: Thu Apr 04 2002 - 09:40:55 MST
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Subject: E-SKEPTIC: SHERMER--HUGH ROSS GOD DEBATE NOTES/SUMMARY
> E-SKEPTIC FOR APRIL 4, 2002
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> MICHAEL SHERMER--HUGH ROSS DEBATE ON GOD TRANSCRIPT
>
> "The Universe Speaks"
> (Debate between Dr. Hugh Ross and Dr. Michael Shermer
> on the Scientific Evidence Concerning the Existence of God)
>
> Assembled by Gary L. Bennett
> [WITH COMMENTARY FROM SHERMER IN BRACKETED CAPS]
>
> Background
>
> On 19 March 2002, the Chi Alpha Christian Fellowship of Boise State
> University hosted a debate on whether or not there was scientific evidence
to
> support the existence of God. The debate featured Dr. Hugh Ross,
President
> and Director of Reasons to Believe, and Dr. Michael Shermer, Publisher of
> Skeptic Magazine and Director of The Skeptics Society. An estimated 1,000
> people attended the debate.
>
> [ACTUALLY, IT WAS NOT TECHNICALLY A "DEBATE" AS ROSS REFUSES TO
PARTICIPATE
> IN DEBATES. HE APPARENTLY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW I WAS GOING TO BE THERE UNTIL
THE
> DAY BEFORE THE EVENT--SOME LACK OF COMMUNICATION PROBLEM IN HIS OFFICE. HE
> SAID HE NORMALLY ONLY DOES PANEL DISCUSSIONS, AND THESE ONLY WITH
> "COLLEAGUES," WHICH HE INDICATED TO ME THAT I WAS NOT--AN ASTRONOMICAL
> COLLEAGUE THAT IS.]
>
> Each speaker was given 35 minutes to talk then the moderator took
> questions from the floor. Dr. Daryl J. Macomb of the BSU Physics
Department
> was the faculty representative seated at the table with Drs. Ross and
Shermer.
>
> The following are my notes of the debate, organized according to the
> general sequence of events. The notes are by no means complete and there
> are, no doubt, errors in recording what was said. In particular not all
> questions and comments from the audience were captured. At least two
people
> were there with video recording equipment so presumably there is a more
> complete record available. (KBCI-TV, Boise's Channel 2, carried a garbled
> news item on the debate during the 10 PM news on 24 March 2002.)
>
> Dr. Hugh Ross's Presentation
>
> NOTE: Ross said his viewgraphs were posted at his Web site:
> <reasons.org>.
>
> Ross began by saying that he was not born a Christian; in fact, he
said
> he was 27 years old before he met his first Christian. (Ross said he was
> from Canada.) Ross's basic message was that the Universe appeared to be
> designed and to have a creator.
>
> [HE ALSO SAID HE WOULD RENOUNCE HIS FAITH IF IT TURNED OUT THAT THE
> SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE DID NOT POINT TO A CREATOR, THEN HE BEGAN HIS LITANY
OF
> FINE-TUNED CONSTANTS AND LAWS THAT LED HIM TO CHOOSE CHRISTIANITY]
>
> Ross said it was his study of the Big Bang that persuaded him that God
> existed. He said he had looked at various holy books but only the Bible
> offered the explanation he sought. Ross said he followed 1 Thessalonians
> 5:21 which said, "Test everything".
>
> Ross listed the following nine creation tests:
>
> 1. Transcendent cosmic origin
> 2. Cosmic fine-tuning
> 3. Solar System fine-tuning
> 4. Origins of life
> 5. Map of biomolecules
> 6. Speciation/extinction model
> 7. Mass extinctions and speciations
> 8. Faint Sun paradox
> 9. DNA history for primates
>
> Ross said with the limited time available he would focus on the first
few
> items. Regarding the first item, he said that the singularity ("Big
Bang")
> origin of the Universe was a transcendent event that must have had a
cause.
> Later he would argue that only the Christian God could create in a
> transcendent manner. As to the faint Sun paradox, he said the changing
> output from the Sun showed that there had to have been different life at
> different times.
>
> Ross asked the audience if they could name who first wrote about the
Big
> Bang. He said it was Job and Moses. He referred the audience to these
> biblical verses:
>
> Genesis 1:1, 2:3, 2:4
> Isaiah 40:26, 45:18, 42:5
> Psalm 148:5
> John 1:3
> Colossians 1:15-17
> Hebrews 11:3
>
> Ross then cited a paper by Hawking and Penrose in which Ross said it
was
> stated that all mass, energy, space, and time must be traceable back to a
> beginning. Ross argued there must be a causal event.
>
> Ross said it was unique to Christianity that God creates transce
> ndentally. Ross said other religions speak to space and time but only
> Christianity speaks to transcendence.
>
> Ross made a passing reference to the Second Law of Thermodynamics then
> went on to say that it was a transcendent entity that brought the Universe
> into existence.
>
> Ross cited these biblical verses to show that God stretched the
heavens
> ("inflationary theory of the early expansion of the Universe"):
>
> Job 9:8
> Psalm 104:2
> Isaiah 40:22, 42:5, 44:25, 45:12, 48:13, 51:13
> Jeremiah 10:12, 51:15
> Zechariah 12:1
>
> Ross said that astronomers have found that the Universe has a flat
> geometry. He said the mass density of the Universe contributes 35% to the
> flatness of the Universe. He noted that there was a space-energy density
> that was now speeding up the expansion of the Universe.
>
> Ross said the Universe had been slowing down for the first 8 billion
> years and then has been speeding up for the next 6 billion years.
>
> Ross cited "atheist astronomer" Lawrence Krauss who, he said, first
> alerted the community three years ago about the fine-tuned mass density of
> the Universe.
>
> Ross said that the mass was flat to 1 part in 1060 and space was flat
to
> 1 part in 10120. He said Penrose said the Universe was flat to 1 part in
> 10240.
>
> Ross noted that the newly built gravity wave telescope was good to 1
part
> in 1023. Ross then concluded that this "entity" who created the Universe
was
> 1060/1023 times more intelligent than were the people who designed the
> gravity wave telescope.
>
> Ross then cited two "Jewish physicists" who had written a paper on the
> degrees of fine-tuning of the Universe. Ross next mentioned a Swiss paper
> that presented a disturbing cosmic perspective.
>
> Ross listed the following two models that have been advanced to
explain
> the accelerating expansion of the Universe:
>
> gravity operates on higher dimensions (brane model)
> variable pressure term
>
> In Ross's view these models were just substituting design for design.
> Ross said the Universe was flat to within 5%.
>
> Ross listed the following probabilities for a planetary parameter to
be
> in the needed range for life. (He said there were 165 design
> characteristics.)
>
> galaxy size .1
> galaxy type .1
> galaxy location .1
> star distance from galactic center .05
>
> With all the various design characteristics included Ross said that
there
> was a 1 chance in 10182 for a planet to have the capacity to support life.
>
> Ross said that one must develop models that can be tested. He said he
> had developed such models and he listed the following predictions about
these
> models:
>
> The case for a transcendent beginning will become more secure as time goes
on
> The number of fine-tuned parameters will increase
> The degree of fine-tuning will increase
>
> From his estimation of the high improbability of the Universe being so
> finely tuned and the high improbability of life arising on Earth he
concluded
> that everything must have been designed by the Christian God.
>
> Ross noted there were some rebuttals to his argument, but he said the
> rebuttals were all philosophical and not scientific. As an example, he
> mentioned the concept of multiple universes in which we happen to live in
the
> one that is just right. He noted that for an infinite number of universes
an
> infinite variety of sets of attributes would be possible.
>
> To rebut the existence of other universes Ross discussed the gambler's
> fallacy. He said that if one flipped a coin thousands of times and it
always
> came up heads then one should bet that the next flip would be heads if the
> sample size is one.
>
> He noted that one could have 100,000 flips with 100,000 coins but he
said
> that philosophically the sample size is one (there was no evidence the
other
> coins are there). Ross said that space is manifold and the universes
can't
> overlap.
>
> Ross cited a paper by Lawrence Krauss published "a few months ago" in
> Astrophysics Journal in which Krauss dealt with the consequences of an
> accelerated expansion of the Universe. According to Ross, Krauss said
that
> the knowledge base would decrease as the Universe expands. Metabolism
will
> cease and consciousness will end. Ross said there would be no hope, no
> purpose, and no destiny.
>
> Ross then cited a paper by Brandon Carter who reportedly said the
window
> for civilization was about 41,000 years. Ross reportedly said this meant
> that humans were created at the best possible time to see most of the
> Universe. Ross said a creator wishes us to have this view.
>
> From Brandon Carter, Ross noted the "Anthropic Principle Inequality":
>
> 15-billion-year minimum to prepare home for humanity
> But, longevity of human civilization is less than 41,000 years
>
> Ross concluded that there must be a higher purpose for humanity for
the
> creator to have spent so much time preparing for us.
>
> Ross claimed the laws of physics have been designed by God to turn us
> away from evil.
>
> Ross gave some personal examples to illustrate that the experience of
the
> Garden of Eden has caused humans to experience more pain:
>
> Abusing tools leads to less productivity and reduced longevity of the
tools
> Abusing employees leads to less productivity and reduced longevity
>
> Ross said that God created the Universe for humanity. He said we
lived
> in the best possible paradise under the laws of physics. He said God was
> using evil and suffering to train us to conquer it. From this he said
humans
> are to conquer evil and then the redeemed humans will receive the new
> creation with brand new laws of physics and new experiences.
>
> At this point Ross's time ran out so he listed the following sources
for
> more information on his views:
>
> Telephone 626-335-5282 (5 PM - 7 PM, Pacific Time) for subscriptions
to
> Connections.
>
> Obtain Facts for Faith by calling 800-482-7836.
> Check out the Web site for Reasons to Believe:
> www.reasons.org
>
> Dr. Michael Shermer's Presentation
>
> [NOTE: Much of the information in Dr. Shermer's presentation appeared
to
> come from his book, How We Believe, The Search for God in an Age of
Science]
>
> Shermer began his presentation by noting that Ross had referred to
> Lawrence Krauss as an "atheist astronomer" and to two other physicists as
> "Jewish physicists". Shermer wondered why Ross would attach a bias to a
> description unless Ross was pursuing some sort of agenda. For example, an
> astronomer is just an astronomer not an atheist astronomer.
>
> [I ALSO INQUIRED WHETHER ROSS IDENTIFIES CHRISTIAN ASTRONOMERS AS SUCH. OF
> COURSE, HE DOESN'T]
>
> Shermer asked those who had brought Bibles to check Ross's references.
> Later there was time for one person to read one of the verses cited by
Ross.
> By a large stretch of the imagination it might have related to what Ross
what
> talking about.
>
> [IT WAS A PASSAGE ABOUT GOD EXPANDING A TENT FOR MORE PEOPLE TO FIT IN IT;
> THIS WAS SUPPOSEDLY THE DESCRIPTION OF THE BIG BANG SINGULARITY]
>
> Shermer said he had once been a born-again Christian and that he went
> door-to-door with the Christian message. He said he had been a sort of
Amway
> salesman with Bibles. Shermer said after much thought and study he became
a
> born-again atheist but he said he is now probably more of a born-again
> agnostic.
>
> Shermer noted that Christians weren't the only ones to see
justification
> for their religious beliefs in science. He mentioned in particular the
> writings of Fritjof Capra (e.g., The Tao of Physics, An Exploration of the
> Parallels Between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism) which argued that
> eastern religions are related to physics.
>
> Shermer said that humans are pattern-seeking animals (he used a
diagram
> of an absent "square" to illustrate this).
>
> Shermer said that religion is a matter of faith. He observed that it
is
> dangerous to apply reason to religion. He stated that science and
religion
> are two separate tiers.
>
> Shermer listed two models of the relationship between science and
> religion:
>
> Warfare model
>
> Overlapping model -- science and religion complement each other
> (Shermer said this only works if you already believe)
>
> [MY THIRD TIER IS THE NONOVERLAPPING MODEL]
>
> Regarding his diagram of the absent square he said the brain has a
model
> of a square so it sees a square. Again, he noted that humans are
> pattern-seeking creatures. He said the absent square could be a metaphor
for
> God: there is no there there. He observed that if one already believes
one
> will see God.
>
> As another example of pattern-seeking Shermer discussed the so-called
> "Bible code" in which people claimed to see messages in the Bible. For
> example, one person claimed to see a prediction of Kennedy's
assassination.
> Shermer said that these messages, which allegedly came from computer
> analyses, required a human to "see" them first. He questioned whether
anyone
> had found a "prediction" that had not already been fulfilled. Moreover,
he
> said that skeptics had shown that one could apply the same methods to
other
> texts (e.g., the works of Shakespeare) and that the skeptics had "seen"
> "predictions".
>
> Shermer said the key question is how to tell the difference between
> patterns in our minds and real patterns.
>
> Citing Henry Morris's book, Remarkable Birth, Shermer said the
> creationists believe God will tell us the age of the Earth so there is no
> need to determine the age of the Earth. Shermer said Ross was on the side
of
> evolution.
>
> Shermer next quoted from Duane Gish's book, Evolution, The Fossils Say
No!
> in which Gish claimed on page 42 that "We do not know how God created,
what
> processes He used, for God used processes which are not now operating
> anywhere in the natural universe. This is why we refer to divine creation
as
> special creation. We cannot discover by scientific investigations
anything
> about the creative processes used by God". This puts creationism outside
the
> realm of science.
>
> Shermer asked: Don't you want to know how the intelligent designer/God
> did it?
>
> Shermer then began discussing the basis of personal religious beliefs.
> He said the number one predictor of one's personal religious beliefs is
where
> one was born and when one was born. In short, religious beliefs are a
> product of the social context. He added that this is true for all
beliefs.
> Our beliefs can often be traced to what our parents believed.
>
> Shermer asked the audience how many were Christians. The overwhelming
> majority held up their hands. Shermer then asked how many of these people
> would change their beliefs if scientists found that some of the
probabilities
> Ross had cited were shown to be changing in a direction against belief.
> Reportedly about two people held up their hands. Shermer noted that
beliefs
> are not based on reasons; that we come to our beliefs by other (emotional)
> means and then search for reasons to bolster our beliefs.
>
> [I DIDN'T SEE A SINGLE HAND GO UP. MY POINT WAS THAT ROSS'S ORGANIZATION
IS A
> COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME BECAUSE PEOPLE DO NOT BELIEVE BASED ON "REASONS" OR
> EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE. THEY BELIEVE FOR SOCIAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL REASONS THAT
> ARE PERSONAL]
>
> Regarding the drives that male psychologists attribute to women,
Shermer
> cited social psychologist Carol Tavris who had said that penis envy had
been
> attributed to the wrong sex.
>
> [THIS WAS A LITTLE JOKE--"FREUD WAS RIGHT ABOUT PENIS ENVY, JUST WRONG
ABOUT
> WHICH SEX HAS IT"--IN THE CONTEXT OF FREUD'S THEORIES ON RELIGION, WHICH I
> DISCUSSED]
>
> Shermer contrasted the reasons "Why I Believe" with the reasons "Why
> Others Believe". He said a study showed that the majority of people who
are
> believers said they were believers because of the good design of the
> Universe. When asked why they thought other people believe these
believers
> said it was because the others had been raised to believe or it gave them
> comfort and a purpose in life.
>
> Shermer said this was a case of "attribution bias". We attribute
> different motives to others: the motives are rational for us and
> psychological for others. He said it is difficult for us to see in
ourselves
> why we believe but we can see the motives in others.
>
> Shermer noted that there have been 10,000 religious beliefs in the
last
> 10,000 years. Christianity alone has 1500 denominations. How does one
> choose?
>
> Shermer posed the question of how to test the Bible. For example, he
> noted that the Bible has two creation stories -- they both can't be right.
> If one posits that God created the Universe then who created God? If an
> intelligent designer created the Universe then an even more intelligent
> designer must have created the intelligent designer. This becomes an
> infinite regress so why invoke the God hypothesis?
>
> Shermer noted that some scientists think a quantum fluctuation created
> the Universe and that this quantum fluctuation had no cause. Shermer
likened
> the creation question to Martin Gardner's "mysterian mystery": the origin
of
> the Universe may not only be unknown it may be unknowable to us. This is
not
> an argument for or against God.
>
> Shermer also pointed out that the Bible does not contain moral
absolutes.
>
> Shermer concluded that religious beliefs come down to personality
> preferences. He urged the audience to keep an open mind and to practice
> tolerance.
>
> The Skeptics Society maintains a Web site at <www.skeptic.com>.
>
> Questions and Answers
>
> [NOTE: I did not make notes on many of the questions because they
> weren't that interesting.]
>
> Dr. Macomb, the BSU faculty representative, began with two questions
for
> Dr. Ross:
>
> Explain the origin of the eye
> What was the brain capacity of Adam and Eve and has human brain
> capacity gone downhill since the Garden of Eden?
>
> Ross said there were 15 major creation accounts in the Bible. He
noted
> that early Hebrew had a limited vocabulary so words were used for many
> things. He said that there were three different translations for the
Hebrew
> word "day". He said that using the meaning of "days" that meant a long
time
> presented no conflict between the two creation accounts in Genesis.
>
> Ross said there were two different kinds of miracles:
>
> those done within the laws of physics
> those transcendent to the laws of physics
>
> Ross added that a principle of Christianity is that the miraculous is
> conserved, i.e., there are only a limited number of miracles.
>
> Shermer gave a brief summary of the origin of the eye, noting that its
> structure was clearly consistent with the evolutionary model.
>
> A student asked what hope was there. Ross said that he was also a
pastor
> at a church in the Pasadena area and he saw reason for hope in
Christianity.
>
> Another student said she had a shamanist father and a Jehovah's Witness
> mother and she wondered what she should believe. While both Ross and
Shermer
> had their comments, Shermer noted the joke: What would you get if you
crossed
> a Jehovah's Witness with an atheist? Answer: Someone who knocks on your
> door for no reason at all.
>
> Another student asked how one could distinguish between one creator
and
> many creators.
>
> Ross said the design of the Universe made it clear that only one
creator
> had been involved not multiple creators (who presumably wouldn't have been
> coordinated).
>
> Ross cited Psalm 95 to argue that God operates in space and time; God
can
> compress and expand time. Ross said God could operate in two dimensions
of
> time. Ross said God can create space-time and move through the dimensions
at
> will.
>
> A student asked Ross a long, rambling question about what caused the
> Universe to begin. Shermer was finally forced to interrupt, pointing out
> that it didn't matter WHO or WHAT started the Universe, or who or what put
> amino acids together and proteins together to make life, the student was
just
> putting the "g" word in front of everything to make his point. Shermer
said
> the student could do that with any name or deity, and he'd still have the
> same argument. Shermer said that science can't deal with the existence of
> God and that people who stick "god" in their discussions about origins are
> just pushing a particular religious agenda.
>
> In answer to one of the questions, Shermer said agnosticism was the
only
> defensible position.
>
> Ross said that the latest results show the Universe was 14 .5 billion
> years old. He said there was no primordial soup and that life arose after
> the "frustration event" (presumably meteor bombardment on the early Earth)
> 3.8 billion years ago. Since it was so quick life Ross said life did not
> evolve naturally. He said there was not enough time. He said he has a
book
> coming out next year dealing with this matter.
>
> Ross went on to say that evolution ignores the changes in the Earth
such
> as the slowing of Earth's rotation from 5 hours to 24 hours; plate
tectonics;
> and an increase in the Sun's output by 35%.
>
> Shermer countered by citing the example of the wallabies that were
taken
> from Australia to Hawaii in 1929. By the 1980s the Hawaiian wallabies
would
> not mate with the Australian wallabies. In short a new species had
arisen.
> Shermer said that speciation happens in decades and even years -- it is
not
> the long process described by Ross.
>
> The moderator finally called a halt to the questions and the audience
> dispersed except for those who spoke with Ross and Shermer or went to the
> tables outside (see next section).
>
> The Battle of the Tables
>
> Three tables were set up outside the Jordan Ballroom: one by Idaho
> Atheists, Inc. (IAI), one by a student Christian group and one for Dr.
> Shermer. Bret Blakeslee of IAI arrived early to set up the IAI table (he
> brought his own table) and was able to get the best spot. The Christian
> students were reportedly not pleased but they set up their table nearby.
> Shermer's table had been put in an out-of-the-way place so Blakeslee
helped
> Shermer move it next to the IAI table.
>
> Blakeslee reported a brisk business from curious students who came to
> talk and to pick up literature. Even the students at the Christian table
> would come over to pick up some literature and then to scurry back to the
> safety of their own table. (Kathie Blakeslee referred to these students
as
> "scurriers".) Blakeslee reported good interest in atheism from a number
of
> students and that most of Shermer's books were sold. Several students,
who
> had their own doubts about religion, were relieved to find out that they
> weren't alone.
>
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