From: Hermit (hidden@lucifer.com)
Date: Wed May 15 2002 - 15:35:12 MDT
[TransdimensionalElf 1]
[Michelle 2]
[TransdimensionalElf 3]
[Hermit 4]
[hr]
[Michelle 1] You're going to have a hard time getting validation on things like that in this forum. Unless Hermit's busy on the bbs.
[Hermit 4]Not so busy that I don't have time to ask a few questions/suggest a few tentative conclusions. And perthaps to remind those who may have forgotten that we are rational atheists.
[TransdimensionalElf 1] I want to know what you guys think of my view on telepathy.
[Hermit 4] It is apparent that you "believe" in it.Belief can only occur where acceptance is not compelled, for if acceptance is compelled, then belief is not required to accept that thing. Belief is thus the acceptance of some thing as being provisionally true where:[*] contradictory evidence exists which throws doubt upon or compels the rejection of the thing being accepted as truth.
[*] insufficient evidence exists to compel or suggest acceptance of the thing as truth.[Hermit 4] It appears to me as if there are significant obstacles to advancing these concepts from "belief" to "acceptance".
[*] [Hermit 4] To start with, you need to propose a mechanism. A mechanism which requires some new physical force which completely overthrows existing well validated physics. This seems to me to be an insurmountable opportunity. Physics as we know it works ridiculously well to explain most quantifiable observations.
[*] [Hermit 4] Secondly you have to throw out vast amounts of careful study which indicates that if telepathy exists that it returns results which are no better than random, and frequently do worse than the null hypothesis. In other words, even if you overcome the physical problem of proposing a mechanism for telepathy, you are left with the fact that it is plain and simple less reliable than blind chance, which appears to make it less than useful.
[*] [Hermit 4] The second obstacle implies the third. If telepathy exists but is less than reliable than blind chance, then why would it exist? What makes it valuable enough to us for it to be preserved in our very limited genetic code? After all, you are specified by about 12 Mbytes of information in your genetic code. How much of that is used to provision this facility and why?
[*] [Hermit 4] Fourthly, you have to overcome the fact that we can create the impression of telepathy in any subject's brain, using numerous mechanisms which interfere with the brain process e.g. drugs, electro neural stimulation and extra-cranial magnetic stimulation. This strongly suggests to me that the least hypothesis is that all telepathy is a matter of aberrant brain activity. It would require convincing data (which apparently does not exist) to overcome this least hypothesis in anybody preserving a modicum of objectivity.
[*] [Hermit 4] Fifthly. the instrument you are using (your brain) to assert the existence of telepathy (and later here, global consciousness) is also the instrument you are using to evaluate your results. It is well known that the brain is quite capable of convincing itself that it is functioning effectively even when it is patently obvious that it is damaged beyond our current ability to repair aberrant processing. Thus, if you are deluded, then your brain is the source of the delusion and it is not possible for you to validate that delusion with your own brain. You need to find persuasive external confirmation, which supports acceptance of the concepts you are advocating. Evidence, which, I suggest, is singularly lacking.[TransdimensionalElf 1] I'm not sure how firmilar some of you with "instermentality." It's kinda of a hard thing to explain, but I'm sure a lot of you have heard of it, and know bits and peices about it here and there. Basicly, I beleive that we are all part of one being acting idependa
ntly.
[Hermit 4] In order to provide a rational basis for considering this concept as anything other than a perceptual tool with no mapping to reality, so prerequisites appear deficient. I would suggest a starting point would be to describe what deficiency in current theory the concept is intended to address, an indication of evidence or reasoning which compels the consideration of this concept, and note that suggestions of how it might it might be disproved would greatly strengthen your case.
[TransdimensionalElf 1] Our minds, have a sort of higher form.. kinda like what Christians, along with other religions would call your "soul." Since we are all connected through this one being... well... if you really want to call it a being... more of a higher form of "reality" that our minds are connected through... a collective conscience.... telepathy should be a possible form of communication.
[Hermit 4] Here you leap from a supposition to assertion, without bothering to do your homework on either the "telepathy" or "collective conscience" concepts and presuppose a connection between the two, other than faulty thinking. In addition, you introduce the concept of a "soul" without providing a foundation for it. Would you like to rethink or support your position? (In order to be perceived as rational you must be prepared to support your assertions).
[Hermit 4] A likely source for these ideas is explained in the The God Module FAQ, referenced below.
[TransdimensionalElf 1] I hear of people reaching this higher form while talking drugs such as shrooms and acid, or in a deep form of meditation.... although, as it has been said, that could just be an illusion.
[Hermit 4] I've tried these (and other ways to destabilize the brain) and experienced the "illusion". The God Module (http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=31;action=display;threadid=25482) essay (Strongly recommended as a fundamental introductory document to Virians) contains clear explanations for why this "illusion" exists, using experimentally validated strong hypothesii supported by accepted science. This would be a good time for you to explain why you think that the mechanisms described in the God Module are not the complete explanation for this phenomenon.
[TransdimensionalElf 1] If you havent noticed ;P I'm kind of a "clutter fuck" as someone once called me. I guess you could say I'm on a quest to rid myself of views that have been pushed onto me from society, but as a lot of you probably know, that is one complicated task... so if some of this makes no sense to you, it was all written as I thought it.
[Hermit 4] Nothing wrong with being a "clutter fuck" unless you have not developed a mechanism and discipline for evaluating the clutter and turning it into useful datums. If you have not yet achieved this, and your writings indicate to me that perhaps you have not, stay here long enough and you probably will pick up some useful techniques.
[TransdimensionalElf 1] I kind of like writing without real structure, just writing thoughts... I think you can learn more about someone that way, and how their mind works. Anyways... I'm going to stop rambling.
[Hermit 4] I miss your justification for why you believe this to be true, to such an extent that you consider your belief to be justified sufficiently to be considered rational, when my experience and observation is that it is only when people attempt to support their beliefs and "views that have been pushed onto" them "from society" (and even more from family and genes), that they examine those beliefs sufficiently clearly to be able to begin to differentiate between belief and reasonable acceptance and sort the data sufficiently well to be able to detect the difference between evidence "what the dog ate" vs. assertion "the dog ate my homework."
[Hermit 4] Rambling is not in and of itself bad, it is however sometimes indicative of not having thought through ones positions sufficiently well to form rational opinions.
[Hermit] As your clutter does not appear to extend to conventional spelling, may I advocate the use of a spell checker as it will make your letters appear less the product of an uneducated mind.
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---- This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of Virus BBS. <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=25462>
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