From: Mermaid . (britannica@hotmail.com)
Date: Tue Jul 30 2002 - 21:27:50 MDT
[Walpurgis]What rules? Whose rules?
[Mermaid]The rules of survival. Play safe and dont spread anything vile or
itchy.
[Nurgle] I'm with Herm on this, good sex. ed. is the best way.
[Walpurgis]Dare to consider more than sex ed. An "ars erotica" is lacking in
our culture. Teaching people of all ages how to create pleasure in
themselves and in others seems to be rare. As a culture "we" are rationally
concerned/wary/fearful of children having sex - intercourse with others.
[Mermaid]I imagine the above was for Nurgle, but here is a thought from my
corner. "We" are wary of children having sex/intercourse because children
are not supposed to be engaging in intercourse. However, children are very
aware of their bodies, but they are still not ready for the pleasures of the
body.
There are five stages of puberty.
Between the ages of 8 and 11, Stage 1, girls do not show any outward signs
of changes. The changes are occuring inside the body. The ovaries are
enlarging and hormone production commences.
Stage 2 usually occurs between 8 and 14 years of age. There are physical
changes. There might be a growth spurt and this is when the girls grow
taller and gain weight. The breasts begin to sprout around this time. There
might be sparse growth of very fine pubic hair.
The third stage is important. Some girls get their first period at the end
of this period. Some get it just after they step into the fourth stage. The
breasts continue to grow and attain shape. Pubic hair becomes darker and
doesnt grow as fine. The girl might experience secretions from her vagina.
She is still a child. Not a woman. This can happen anytime between 9 and 15.
Age of puberty varies from person to person. It is dependent on various
factors like diet, genetics etc.
The fourth stage sometimes brings about ovulation. Ovulation is the release
of egg cells. It might or not fall into the monthly pattern. The system is
still getting to used to the rapid changes. Underarm hair appears now.
Usually after the appearance of pubic hair.
The final stage of puberty is when a girl becomes a adult. Breasts and pubic
hair growth is complete. Ovulation falls into a regular pattern. While the
girl might still continue to grow, this is the first step into adulthood.
Again, the age varies. The final stage can begin anywhere from age 12 for
the early starters to 19 for the late ones.
For boys:
Boys begin late.
As with girls, the first stage does not show any physical changes, but the
body will start to produce hormones. This can be as late as 12 or as early
as 9.
During the second stage of puberty, the boys might find a growth in the size
of their testicles and scortum. The penis size does not change. They grow
taller and might gain weight. Pubic hair begins to show.
In the third stage, penis size grows in length, but not much in width. There
could be a change in their vocal chords and voices change. Pubic hair gets
coarser and darker.
Fourth stage invites growth in the width of penis size. Length of penis,
scrotum and testicles continue to grow. Facial hair begins to grow. Hello
Acne! Underarm hair shows up. Some boys might have their first ejaculation.
The boy is still a boy. When the body has finished growing, the boy is
finally an adult male.
As with girls, the age of puberty might differ from person to person.
I hope this is clear enough for an explanation about how puberty proceeds.
In the last stages, in the mid stage between child and adult, the body of
the adolescent is still growing. While externally and emotionally, the
individual might feel like he or she is an adult, they are not. I cannot
stress this enough. Physical growth is not an indication of full growth.
This growth is natural and it takes it own time. It should not experience
interruptions. Curiosity can and does exist. Hormone levels fluctuate before
they settle at their levels. The body must be given a chance to bloom into
adulthood. The stages of puberty is called teenage. It is generally accepted
that all these changes happen between 13-18. For some earlier and for some,
it ends later.
This is not an invitation for all and sundry to taste someone else's youth.
This is why children and teenagers are not expected to engage in sexual
activity or intercourse(for the purposes of procreation, of course...but we
have passed the times when sex was for procreation alone.) before they are
ready. "We" did not encourage it for very valid reasons.
[Walpurgis]If we taught children that (how?) they could pleasure
themselves- or at the very least let them know that masturbation
(something they do anyway) was not wrong/naughty/dirtydirtyboy! then
there would be a positive sexual/pleasurable outlet that would
stimulate imagination and free children from negative ideas regarding
pleasure, genitals & onanism. This would also redirect sexual emphasis
from penetration.
[Mermaid]My sympathies are with you if you grew up in an environment where
mastrubation was taught to be wrong. There is no need to teach children how
to pleasure themselves. They know it by themselves. It just comes naturally.
If it doesnt, there is obviously no need for the boy or girl to go seeking
it. Hence, no mastrubation classrooms are required.
[Walpurgis]Of course it wouldn't fulfil other need (anothers
body, interacting/relating to/pleasuring another).
[Mermaid]This is where sex education goes horribly wrong. On one hand is the
theoratical aspects(like the five stages of puberty...as mentioned above)
and on the other hand, there is the need to educate young adults the risks
of unsafe sex, the need to protect oneself from nasty diseases, responsible
sex etc. It is imperative to convey both these important messages. In the
meantime, these teenagers need an outlet to test their new found knowledge
and bodies.
[Mermaid]If things go their normal course, then boys and girls would
discover each other. Unfortunately, it is not that simple. Even before girls
and boys attain puberty(never mind stepping out of puberty), they begin to
date. Sexual awareness begins along with expectations of performance.
Exploration and understanding of one's own bodies and the changes that
occurs within themselves is an experience every young adult misses out. Add
to this youthful rebellion and we have a mess in our hands.
[Walpurgis]Why can't children's masturbation something that is taught about
or at least looked upon with a beneign (or even indifferent!) eye? Something
considered normal? Healthy? Fun!? Are there health or biological reasons why
you must intrude on and stop children from masturbating?
[Mermaid]It cannot be taught. Children mature at different ages. Contrary to
popular misconceptions, I doubt if they are 'confused' that they actually
need an adult guiding hand to rub their genitals. Mastrubation is completely
natural and healthy. Oops...thousands of years of religion just fucked up
your average teenager's favourite recreational activity. Pass some bile,
please? I need some to spew on religion of all colours and shapes.
[Walpurgis]Do they go blind? Does it make you vote conservative? Be
anti-social?
Or perhaps its the pleasure that is seen as wrong?
Relatedly see:
http://www.upress.umn.edu/HarmfultoMinors.html
[Mermaid]I am sorry.
[Mermaid earlier]13-18 = teen.
8-12 = pre-teen. younger than 8=child. IMO: I would definitely put the
pre-teen category as work-in-progress as far as sexual maturity goes.
13-15 are definitely ready for sex,
[Walpurgis]Generalisations. Character, not age, is the measure, young or
old.
[Mermaid]Please refer again to the five stages of puberty. While, it might
be difficult to slap an age of puberty for everyone, it does occur within a
specific range of years in a person's life. It is all inclusive in the term
pre-teen and teen.
[Mermaid]If you want to go by character, I know some 40 year olds who behave
like they never stepped out of their diapers. Enough said. That is a rant
for another day.
[Mermaid earlier] but should refrain from sexual activity.
[Walpurgis]Do you mean just penetration (most people do when
they say "sex")? Or everyting? Like touching or looking at each other?
(playing doctor?) Masturbating? Fantasising? Wondering?
[Mermaid]Penetration and exchange of fluids for the sake of safety. There is
a time to sit back and observe and absorb. There is a time to act on the
basis of knowledge gained. A girl who is still not an adult does risk
getting pregnant. A young boy might act out sexually before he is an adult
and get away without any scars, but as with all things, such an act would
disrupt the balance. He can either impregnate a girl and that, as mentioned
above, is not something to be thrilled about... or he might engage in sexual
activity with an older person which is highly unlikely and i couldnt care
less. I wish the boy best of luck and hope that he emerges out of it clean.
I am merely talking about the physical act of intercourse. There is, of
course, the emotional aspect as well as the social implications depending
upon the environment. However, I wouldnt even go there because that would
take a couple of hours to analyse and discuss.
[Mermaid]Anything other than intercourse(i.e. the 'fun' aspects of sex)is
alright so long as safety is employed. And as long as it is not an abusive
and as long as it is a consensual relationship. I do believe that children
towards the end of puberty are perfectly aware of themselves and those
around them. Most of them are and some of them are not. This is how society
works. Our needs are sacrificed for the sum of all our differences.
[Mermaid]It just struck me right now that homosexual activity of any kind
between either sexes is actually beneficial. While all children go through a
phase when they are attracted to both boys and girls, there isnt really much
room for them to make a choice because of the stigma attached to
homosexuality. Sexual orientation, for many, is pre destined by their
gender. The joy of exploration may be marred by peer acceptance and jeers
from the locker/powder room. Again, you can blame religion. A few thousand
years from now...I can only imagine what we will be doing..:)
[Mermaid]Walpurgis, I detect a tone in your post that urges me to make
something very clear. I am not being conservative nor am I ignoring the
needs of semi-adults. I do understand the rollercoaster ride that is
puberty. I also realise that there is a large crowd of weirdos out there who
would manipulate any need to suit their emotional or physical needs by
exploiting this natural curiosity of children. There are very few adults who
understand young adults and lead them with patience and kindness. There are
some others who like to think of themselves as guardians while only drowning
in the pleasure of the power that they receive from their younger paramours.
And then there is the majority who is just out there to exploit and use
anything that is functionable between a pair of legs.
[Mermaid]I also realise that the laws can get iffy and sticky by their
inflexible nature. Kids going steady for years and being sexually active
suddenly might face the possibility of one of them being slapped with
statutory rape because the other is a few months younger and hence no longer
'legal'. I also do realise that the law is intrusive and is making a mess
out of the whole deal.
[Mermaid]I am also aware that sex education gets the lowest priority in the
rearing of a child into a young adult. Knowledge about STDs and how they are
transmitted is a quick flick instead of in depth discussions and
counselling. Most importantly, there is no time because of societal
pressures for enjoying an important transistion in one's life. Maybe
abstinence will work. Maybe children will learn to be children again and
enjoy growing into adults instead of being rushed into it.
[Mermaid earlier]Anyone who understands the need for safe sex and is
familiar with safe sex procedures is ready for sex.
[Walpurgis]Right. So where does age come into this? Age is just a rule of
thumb and says nothing about individual character/understanding
[Mermaid]I agree. Absolutely. Maturity and responsibility can turn up
anytime. What I would like to see is the implementation of abstinence with
all the freedom to break the rule of abstinence. Every structure needs a
ceiling and a floor. Every system needs its limits. This is a safety net,
not a fence. This should be made amply clear. Afterall, children who are
striken by STDs or pregnancies or emotional baggage have to live with it for
the rest of their lives and they are likely to pass it on. That kinda ruins
it for everyone else. Children should be able to recognise the need for
abstinence as a stop gap measure and not as a chastity belt around their
genitals.
[Walpurgis]If by street-walker you mean prostitute, then I believe
prostitution is illegal in the UK.
[Mermaid]As far as I know, prostitution is not illegal in the UK. Soliciting
is illegal, however...
[Walpurgis]What's the source for this please? It looks interesting.
[Mermaid]http://www.populationaction.org/news/press/news_042302_Youth.htm#statistics
http://www.populationaction.org < disclaimer: I havent browsed the entire
website yet. I do not support or endorse all that it proclaims. I simply
used it to compare the statistics available re Netherlands, USA and Iran.
And also to cut and paste something that sounded interesting.
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This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Wed Sep 25 2002 - 13:28:50 MDT