From: Mermaid . (britannica@hotmail.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 2002 - 14:26:34 MDT
[Walpurgis]What we seem to be disagreeing on is how much information is
enough, and at what point a person can consent (and perhaps also, what
consent is) and what it means to be a child (conceptually and
experiencially).
[Mermaid]Information that safeguards individuals from STDs, pregnancy and
creepy characters on the prowl is just sufficient. Sex should not be spoon
fed. It should be discovered. A person has the right to consent only when he
or she can face the consequences of the consent. When a young person is
dependent on adults, they are expected to toe the line. Unfair? Tought shit.
I'd say to a kid to get out the house or pay for their own herpes medication
or abortion. Let me try a different example. Children are parasites. Lets
not forget that. They are dependent on their adult guardians for everything.
It might sound crude, but lets not forget that this is the bottom line. This
parasite will not leave the host body until it can survive by itself. And
when it can draw its strength to survive from outside the host body, the
host body loses it control over the parasite.
[Walpurgis]Though you oppose penetrative sex for the young (which makes some
sense as a general rule, given the immature state of their bodies), you seem
to agree that safe non-penetrative sex is fine:
[Mermaid]I agree to no such thing. I have no intention of running the lives
of pimply, horny teenagers with my ideas. 'Safe non penetrative' sex, if it
involves exchange of bodily fluids is not appropriate unless the child(or
teenager or adult, if you wish to call them that)understands the act which,
of course, must be consensual. I do not consider touching and carressing as
'sex'. Non penetrative sex also requires informed consent.
[Walpurgis]Not ready for pleasures? Here I disagree. so far your argument
has seemed to be "no genital intercourse, especially with older penises". As
you know, this isn't all there is to pleasure. Children show that they are
quite ready for pleasure by
masturbating, looking at each other etc.
[Mermaid]I agree. Sorry for not being clear enough.
[Walpurgis]It might be pertinent to point out that most young children don't
see such play/interest as sexual (and all the wieght that comes with it). We
teach them it is sexual. You children are usually ver physical,
affectionate, curious and playful - these explorations are part of that.
[Mermaid]Agreed.
[Walpurgis]If "exploring" children were known to be disease free, would you
leave them to their games? If someone told me to put rubber gloves on
everytime I lifted a girls skirts, I'd probably have a rubber glove fetish
by now or something...
[Mermaid]Disease. Pregnancy. Physical harm. (kid sticking a pencil..sharp
end up...into his asshole just out of curiosity.)Expenditure. Kids can suck
on themselves for all I care.(Yea, its possible) and btw..thats not true for
all..I do not have a rubber glove fetish at all. Of course, consent is
important. Let me correct myself...INFORMED Consent is important before we
allow our children to fuck each other or as some do...demand the right to
fuck them.
> There are five stages of puberty.
Source please.
www.puberty101.com
www.avert.org
[Walpurgis]But what to infer from this? Nothing can be said of how informed
a child is, or what their psychological state is.
[Mermaid]I dont know what is being inferred, but what should be inferred is
this...all children dont mature at a certain age. By allowing sexual
freedoms for all, the ones who are not ready to accept the challenges of
sexual maturity suffer. The only way is to educate children so that they
learn to listen to their bodies and recognise their needs instead of
imagining that there is a certain age to date, a certain age for sex and a
certain age by which one is expected to lose virginity. This works both
ways. Children should be taught among other things to be able to observe
themselves and listen to their bodies intently. This is just not re sex.
This applies to all physical messages we send to ourselves.One definitely
does NOT need adults championing the need for a teenage sexual revolution.
[Walpurgis]Again, the main point seems to be, how much
knowledge is enough? Can the person is question consent to safe sex (safe
sex being use of contraception and not being hurt)?
[Mermaid]Informed consent, imo, is essential. Like I said before, too much
has been made about 'teaching sex'. Only the guidelines of safe sex needs to
be taught and that when one means no..he or she means NO.
[Walpurgis]Irrelevant. You don't need to be an adult to have safe sex.
[Mermaid]I agree. I dont see a disagreement.
[Walpurgis]Interruptions being a euphemism for penis?
What do you mean by interruptions? Is this the same as "interfer"?
Does sex stunt your growth or something?
[Mermaid]I dont know if sex stunts growth. Not from what I have read and
heard. By interruptions, I mean the pesky pressures and expectations to be
sexual while still lacking the equipment to be a physically sexual creature.
> This is not an invitation for all and sundry to taste someone else's
> youth.
[Walpurgis]Can youth ask to be tasted?
[Mermaid]Of course. But an adult is responsible, legally, for his actions.
[Walpurgis]No at all. My privacy was respected at the ages I could
understand its value. This including giggling with other kids under the
sheets.
[Mermaid]I must have misunderstood.(giggling under the sheets?...lol)
[Walpurgis]I'm not suggesting any kind of erotica techniques should (or even
could!) be taught in today's classrooms.
[Mermaid]Not a bad idea, actually...obviously boys dont learn much by
themselves. It shows when they become adults. I suspect its genetic and they
are damned when they turn up as boys.....;-)
[Walpurgis]At the very least masturbation should be understood as a postive
thing - if feels good and hurts nobody.
[Mermaid]I dont know, Walpurgis. Mastrubation might be taught as a 'bad'
thing by some, but I doubt if it has any effect on the intended audience. No
harm done. But then...thats just me guessing. You might as well be right. I
have no way of knowing.
[Walpurgis]Could one option for that outlet be a responsible adult who knows
what they are doing, who the teenager desires and who can teach with
direction and caring?
[Mermaid]No, there is no such thing as a responsible adult. This might occur
and it does happen when a rare few have had the good fortune to meet someone
who does not have questionable intentions. These are exceptions and should
be considered as such. I bet a lot would love to imagine themselves to be
'responsible'. This does happen a lot too.
[Walpurgis]Again, character is the true measure. Only inter-relating persons
can ascertain this.
[Mermaid]You are right. I do not expect strait-laced kids when I mean
responsible. When they are no longer dependent on others to clear their
messes, children are absolutely free to make their messes. Unfortunately,
having a back up to clean up one's messes extracts a price that is parental
control.
[Mermaid]Everyone worries about children's rights. As they rightly should in
most cases. Who worries about parent's rights? Does not a parent have the
right to conduct and manage his/her life while playing guardian for that
overgrown fast sperm which escaped? Does not the parent have the right to
make sure that there are certain ground rules so that he or she doesnt have
to shovel the shit that most kids dump whenever they feel like having fun?
Very few parents are capable of being responsible parents. Letting go of the
reins without totally losing control over their kids. This is precisely the
reason why everyone shouldnt be allowed to have children. Since this will
not happen...at the very minimum, every parent should be fully aware of what
parenthood means before they decide to start a family.
[Walpurgis]Scars? I find these assumptions a little annoying. Sex is only
likely to hurt the young if adults do not inform them (and help them inform
themselves), and if they are informed wrongly. There is nothing
instrinsically bad about young sex.
[Mermaid]'young sex' is inexperienced and is often confused. Again, assuming
that the rest of the young population resembles a precious few intelligent
ones is very annoying to me. Make no mistake. There are a lot of stupid
little shits out there. Not all kids are smart. Not all kids are
intelligent.
[Mermaid]I dont understand when this happened. This elevation of children,
en masse, as a victimised group whose charms, intelligence and brilliance is
sucked out by the evil adults.
[Walpurgis]Even if a child *is* hurt, then this does not leave them ruined
for life. Wounds heal, at every age. Often, when these children make sexual
decisions in later life, these decisions are dismissed because of past hurt.
Rape and abuse do not always destroy a personality. Victims are not always
and forever victims.
[Mermaid]You are more right than wrong. My take on this goes a bit further.
A long while ago, I suggested that rape should be treated as an injury. It
is not so much as the experience of rape or abuse that scars victims as it
is the status of victimhood that is conferred upon them. Sometimes, there is
a certain profit in accepting victimhood. Many willingly accept victimhood.
There was much verbal thrashing for my suggestion.
[Mermaid]This is how things work. There are a large number of people out
there who feel that they are victims when they neednt feel that way. This is
what happens to children. Some might escape this predicament and not accept
victimhood. This is a very small number. But, from a larger perspective,
this is not the point at all. All energies should be directed towards
injustice and exploitation that creates victims or recovered victims.
[Mermaid]I have noticed that you consistently speak for the minority. Yes,
minority rights are important, but there is no point to it when there is no
way to categorise individuals into camps on the basis of their sexual
maturity. This is well and fine for discussing issues and solutions on an
individual basis or even for a group of 'different' individuals. When we
speak generally, every category should be included. I believe that in
general, many children are not ready for sex. In general, many children are
irresponsible and stunningly stupid. In general, many children are ignorant
or dismissive about safe sex. In general, there are more victims than those
who brush away the minor or major wounds. Demanding that children be treated
as adults or that children do not experience victimhood while speaking for
the entire population does not make sense.
[Walpurgis]I know people who have experienced rape and abuse and I know that
what happened to them hardly matters to some of them now (it was a long time
ago), and that sexual decisions they make are not necessarily informed by
these experiences. I also know some people who had sexual experiences at
early ages - and they were good. All anecdotal, but they inform my
understanding.
[Mermaid]I hear you. I believe you.
[Walpurgis]Agreed to a point, though you make homosexual feelings sound like
a fleeting phase for most. Pigeon-holing sexuality is a mistake and part of
the problem. Gender should only be relevant as to the safe-sex techniques
involved. Let them explore/invent for themselves without pinning a label to
them.
[Mermaid]IMO, all children experience homosexual feelings. But few have the
choice to be who they are...This a glitch in how our society works and how
society programs children into designing their sexuality with no choice at
all.
[Walpurgis]Large? I'm afraid this is a misconception. Unless you are
referring to the majority of people at large and their twisted ideas about
sex and relating?
[Mermaid]I disagree. I enjoy perversions and twisted ideas. I do not see
anything 'abnormal' in an adult desiring a child in a sexual manner. It is
absolutely normal and expected. But one does not always be embraced and
'understood' for acting out his or her impulses. Murder would be a-ok, by
the same logic. That does not mean that the child is ready for his or her
intentions. Some might be and most arent. It is unacceptable for an adult to
treat a child in the same wavelength as an adult when it comes to sex. Often
the excuse is that the child is 'mature' for his/her age. The adult
encourages the child to imagine that he or she is 'different' from his/her
peers...that the child deserves better than their juvenile company...that
the child is more intelligent and can communicate with adults. Hence, its
alright for the child to consort with the adult and be expected to be
treated as an adult. This further elevates a child to a mental and emotional
high chair which is completely undeserved. This is how harm is done. In the
end, you have a child who is physically and mentally 14 years old, but
believes that he or she is 30 years old. This makes these kids totally
unprepared for the outside world without any coping skills. However, I do
believe that games should be played only among those who are on even grounds
of understanding, ability and skills.
[Walpurgis]There are also caring lovers and understanding advisors.
[Mermaid]Agreed.
[Walpurgis]It sounds like we need to be teaching adults more than children.
I think children would mainly do fine if left alone in a disease and
conception free/protected situation. Its adults interferring
that messes it all up.
[Mermaid]I think it was George Carlin who said, "You want to help children?
Leave them the fuck alone!"
[Walpurgis]Sexuality is part of being a child. Enjoying sexual pleasure is
part of childhood. It is not being rushed into adulthood.
[Mermaid]Sexuality has nothing to do with age. Understanding and acting upon
one's feelings of sexuality does..
[Walpurgis]Increasingly I find the child/adult distinction as
arbitrary, nonsensical and ideologically informed as notions about age.
[Mermaid]A child, more often than not, is not an adult. The definition of
the words is precisely based on the age factor. Unless you want to change
the english language, your position does not hold much water. An adult,
however, can behave like a child. A child can behave LIKE an adult. But one
cannot be the other.
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