From: ben (ben@machinegod.org)
Date: Sat Aug 03 2002 - 22:34:08 MDT
[ben] Also, it is not surprising to see that many more Palestinians were
killed and injured when one takes into account the readiness with which they
kill themselves and each other.
[Hermit 1] Can you support this, in other words, what percentages of these
totals do you think were "own goals"?
[ben 2] No, I cannot support with numerical evidence, only the widely shared
knowlege that this is a people who have sent their own children into certain
death just to kill their neighbor's children, and the recent disclosire in
the UN report than many of the deaths in Jenin were caused by Palestinians
falling victim to Palestinian boobytraps.
[Hermit 1] Once we have that information, we can determine whether the
assumptions underlying the balance of this discussion are correct or whether
it is, as I suspect, founded on unstated and invalid assumptions.
[ben 2] I'm not saying that the "own goals" if discounted would even the
score. I'm merely saying that it would be a closer count - how much closer,
I (and I suspect anyone else) cannot at this point say.
[Hermit 1] Even if your assumptions were correct, and I don't think that
they are, consider what it would take to get you to the point you are
asserting is held by the Palestinians. What would it take to get you to
applaud one of your children committing suicide? What would it take to get
you to kill one of your relatives? Would it not be easier for you to applaud
one of your children attempting to kill an enemy, or to do so yourself,
before being killed in turn?
[ben 2] What would it take? Well I suppose believing that it was commanded
by god would help, as would a fat paycheck. Being manipulated by spiritual
and poliytical leaders with personal agendas might push me in that direction
as well. This of course in addition to the real, grievous harm I freely
admit has been done to them in the name of Zionism.
[Hermit 1] If you can't consider the Palestinian/Israeli situation
disspassionately [...]
[ben 2] I can. I don't live there; I don't even know anyone who lives there.
I have no philospohical or spiritual ties to either faith involved. I had a
bit of what would be described in other scenarios as "white man's guilt" but
I got over it.
[Hermit 1 (cont'd)] consider historical precedents for the situation. What
were the historic motivations for the people in similar situations?
[ben 2] Please rephrase the question. Which people? The Palestinians, the
Israelis, disposessed people in general or occupying peoples in general?
There are a wealth of historical comparisons that could be made, but I'm not
sure which direction you're trying to go with this.
Cheers,
-ben
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