From: Mermaid . (britannica@hotmail.com)
Date: Sun Aug 04 2002 - 02:01:14 MDT
First of all, I apologise for the delay in replying. I was a little
distracted by the re-run of the old rabid discussion about Israel's murders.
Thanks for the time you took to your thoughtful response. Here goes...
[Walpurgis] The problem illustrates the solution - children must be
given/allowed access to resources and the tools that bring solutions.
[Mermaid]Not all of them. Some have the capability to find their solutions
and some are simply not equipped cerebrally or intutively. This is when good
parenting skills help to recognise the true capabilities of a child. After
all, parenting isnt something that ends after labour.
[Walpurgis] Do you have children?
[Mermaid]fuck NO!
[Walpurgis]I've seen children's art that looks like Picasso's.
[Mermaid]And I have seen grown men doodle like children and call it modern
art. Individual sense of aesthetics can be varied..:)
[Walpurgis]And what of your delight at their delight when they discover
something new, something enjoyable?
[Mermaid]This sounds like tree huggers telling me that they thought a flower
is a miracle of nature. Doh! yea..it only happens several million times
around the world in a day.
[Walpurgis]I could go on, but I fear sentimentalising children.
[Mermaid]You are, but its ok. If it gives you delight and joy, then you must
revel in it...:) To each..his own..
[Walpurgis] They people, and can be trying or even hideous to deal with too.
[Mermaid]True.
[Walpurgis] If kept away from their genitals enough, females won't even know
about/be able to locate their own clitoris - the issue may well be one of
knowledge again, rather than desire.
[Mermaid]I agree. But I would also like to point to you that women's libido
is often scattered by other distractions like childbirth, family, feminism,
pedicures and pussy deodrant.
[Walpurgis]I would expect girls and boys to masturbate (or not) in
equal measure if they weren't kept away from their genitals. I think
masturbation would come naturally if a child is let alone <snip>
[Mermaid]I will not disagree.
[Walpurgis]Wash you hands now, cos god knows those vaginal fluids are
poison.
[Mermaid]Definitely not poison!! But I would suggest that you wash your
hands anyways...:)
[Walpurgis]In abortion laws, the foetus is treated as a kind of proerty
right; aligned with the state and with the vastness of Social order, the
foetus is inscribed not as the personal interest of what is not yet a
personality, but rather as the future interest of the Law situated in the
place of the absent father, whose "theoretical" right in
genetic perpetuity is assumed" (p108). This is one reason why abortion
is such a hysterical issue (especially in the US) because it is a matter of
proptery ownership of the foetus and the woman (who should do as she's told
and gestate for man and state!)
[Mermaid]Hmm..A foetus, being a mass of tissue, IS property. It belongs to
both the egg and sperm donar. I used to hold a position that its the woman's
sole right to decide because 'its her body' etc etc....until someone asked
me...very sensibly, i might add....if it was an fair situation when the
father has no right in deciding if he wants his spare sperm turn into a
brat. I now believe that a woman has the right to terminate an unwanted
pregnancy, but she does not have the right to bring into this world a life
without the permission of the father of the child.
[Walpurgis] Children shouldn't owe their parents. Thier parents take a risk
by conceiving the child - the risk is whether the child will love them
enough to give them anything back. If the child does not, too bad -that's
the risk you take (and the parents probably contributed to the failure
anyway).
[Mermaid]Right! If a child grows up believing that he doesnt owe any
gratitude for the food, shelter, clothing, education and life he has gained
from his parents, then his parents probably deserve an ingrate like that for
raising an child with no values. No, the child doesnt not owe anything to
the parents. Yes, he is probably an asshole.
[Walpurgis] This is pretty scary. Who draws the profiles/does the research?
aside from the cost (who pays for it?) this would probably be the States job
- giving them even more control over a persons life (how they reproduce and
form a family).
[Mermaid]Nobody HAS to have annual physicals. But it is useful, isnt it?
Similarly, counselling and analysis before adopting parenthood(or even
before a marriage or a long term commitment) to assess the pros, cons,
strenghts and weaknesses of an alliance such as that will prove to be
useful. I dont think the State needs to pitch in the pennies for this. In
fact, they shouldnt have to...That is not in their job description. I stand
corrected. It is probably not worthwhile or possible as a 'compulsary'
procedure.
[Walpurgis]Financial status will leave a lot of poor people childless
(having money isn't a virtue, there are poor people who have close loving
family lives).
[Mermaid]And having poor parents who cannot afford education or proper
health care is a good thing. There is only so much love can fulfill. I didnt
suggest that only those with a six figure salary should be allowed to have
children.
[Walpurgis]This would probably result in more injustice and abuse than it
would solve and prove a huge political issue which would have no chance of
being implemented in this political climate.
[Mermaid]I cant see it as you describe.(keep in mind..I do not expect the
State to support such programs)
[Walpurgis]Laws which hinder single parents or a family with more than two
parents, non-heterosexual and non-monogamous families and a move away from
the ideology of ownership and misunderstanding over child sexuality as well
as helping vulnerable and underprivalged persons would make good first
steps.
[Mermaid]Sometimes I feel that people have children for a hobby or because
they want to 'find meaning in their lives' or just to prove some goddamned
point based on their choice of sexuality. Sometimes, it is the parents
themselves who abuse their children right from the time they decide to be a
parent for all the wrong reasons. I wonder if there is any point at all in
bargaining with them to provide a better childhood for children.
Walpurgis] here it is evident that the family is the result (as well as
cause) of social interactions generally. You can't change the family (much)
without big changes in cultural understanding, economic distribution and
class structure and gender/sexuality equality.
[Mermaid]True.
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