From: Hermit (hidden@lucifer.com)
Date: Sun Aug 04 2002 - 15:16:04 MDT
[Casey] Palestinians strike at the heart of Israel with terrorist attacks using suicide bombers and armed militants. Which prompts army incursions, arrests, and airstrikes by the Israeli government in response. Loop it and repeat.
[Hermit 1] I observe that Israel has been illegally occupying and oppressing the Palestine for 30 years, and has victimized, pauperized and have ejected the Palestinians that once lived in territory seized by Israel. The economics make it transparently clear. 45% of Palestinians earn less than the UN poverty datum - $2 per day, or less than $ 730 per year - while average Israeli income at $17'000, is only $1'000 a year less than the average UK income.
[Hermit 1] Drawing on parallels, blacks in South Africa had more rights under apartheid (and certainly were never attacked by South African military units) than a Palestinian in his home country, currently occupied by Israel.
[Joe Dees 2] What about the March 21, 1960 Sharpeville Massacre by South African police forces wielding submachine and Sten guns, which killed fifty-six black South African civilian citizens, incuding women and children (70% shot in the back as they were fleeing), and wounded 162, and tipped a previously peaceful and nonviolent ANC over into armed resistance?
[Hermit 3] Err, reading problem? Comprehension issue? I said, "never attacked by South African military units" you respond, what about "South African police forces"... While all I know about this event is from examining history, I also take isuue with comparing tanks firing explosive shells and 50mm machine gun rounds and helicopters delivering 1 ton A2G missiles and 50mm gatling shells with "submachine and Sten guns" (the former of which was only issued to SAP in the 1970s (when SA licenced them from Israel) and the latter of which AFAIK has never been issued to SA Police).
[Hermit 1] The rest of the world, including the US and UK, supported the ANC (as no doubt did some of the "social liberals" in our midst), despite the ANC's highly overrated use of terror. Yet this is not acceptable for the Palestinians. Instead, the oppressor, Israel receives support. Why should this be? While I loath all terrorism, something seems to be unbalanced here.
[Joe Dees 2] The deluge of suicide bombings perpetrated by the Palestinians has no parallel in recent history, and certainly not in the ANC.
[Hermit 3] I see no difference in the effect between killing masses of civilians with limpet mines, and killing them with explosive belts worn by a suicide bomber. In either case large numbers of civilians die. So there is a direct parallel. I see no difference between mining roads and shooting farmers as done by the ANC with the mining and shooting of Israelis in vehicles by the Palestinians. The situations are precisely parallel.
[Joe Dees 2] The Israelis are not a tiny minority in the region; Palestinian and Israeli populations are roughly equivalent.
[Hermit 3] This is the situation today, after Israel has removed vast numbers of Palestinians, driving them into Palestinian territories and into exile, while simultaneously importing huge number of "Jews of convenience" from other areas, 2.5 million from the ex Soviet republics in the last decade alone. Right now more Palestinians are living as seemingly "permanent refugees" in other countries than in Israel and Palestine combined. Again, the parellel is very precisely equivalent.
[Joe Dees 2] This is in sharp contrast with South Africa, where less than one-fifth of the population oppressively ruled the vast majority.
[Hermit 3] Some of the currently starving people of Southern Africa might agree with you. I'm not prepared to discuss it with somebody who so blatently knows so little about the history.
[Joe Dees 2] Still, the land must be fairly divided, with the Palestinians being ceded the West Bank, Gaza and a travelling corridor between them, all of the Jewish settlers in these areas, willing or not, should be relocated back into Israel proper, and either Jerusalem should be split, with east jerusalem being ceded to the Palestinians, or the city should be internationalized, perhaps under UN administration.
[Hermit 3] It is not going to work. Israel has destroyed the delicate ecology of the area, and the land, when in good condition, could only sustainably support 30% of the people now living there.
[Joe Dees 2] Of course, for this to hold, the Palestinian bombings and shootings of Israeli citizens must cease, which will require that the members of the various and sundry Palestinian terrorist organizations be hunted down and apprehended or, if they refuse to allow same and violently resist, killed.
[Hermit 3] Why? They have international law on their side. They are entitled to resist occupation. The Israeli's do not have international law on their side - indeed they are in breach of the Geneva Conventions. Read the UN report again.
[Joe Dees 2] The problem is, of course, that the terrorist organizations don't just want
Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem; they want it ALL, the whole enchilada, and will continue to terrorize until they get either it all or are killed.
[Hermit 3] I doubt it. But as you have seemingly never dealt with such a situation, and obviously haven't research any of the history of terror organizations or their conclusions, are speaking from a position of vast ignorance.
[Hermit 1] Casey left out these very important facts, necessary to comprehending what is happening. The state of Israel, supported by the US and UK, oppresses the Palestinian and the Palestinian left with no legal, political, military or social options, responds with terrorist attacks - to which the state of Israel responds with more oppression. Countries supporting Israel get drawn into the fray. Why is this not obvious? What is sauce for the goose is surely sauce for the gander.
[Joe Dees 2] Yeah, maybe it's time for some ultraorthodox Jewish teens to don some
explosive belts and head for some Palestinian civilian crowds.
[Hermit 3] "As long as they are our terrorists..." International law, which you so disparage, says that this is not the case.
[Hermit 1] It does not just depend on the Israelis. So long as people around the World can assert that Palestinians have no rights and are not people*, the disaster will continue.
[Joe Dees 2] I support the Palestinians' rights to a homeland of their own, just like I
support the Israelis' rights to the same thing. At this point, it looks to me like a greater percentage of Israelis are in favor of a two-state solution than the percentage of Palestinians who would be willing to accept the same.
[Hermit 3] You forget (or maybe never knew). The Palestinians have a right to their own state. Not homeland. And it is way larger than the current discussions include. They are not going to get it - or even a fraction of it, because it would control the water supply - and of course, their neighbors have weapons of mass destruction and friends with deep pockets and vast influence.
[Joe Dees 2] Both sides have to learn that both peoples are their for the long-haul duration, that is, no one's gonna get pushed into the sea over there.
[Hermit 3] Want to take a side bet on this? How about the Palestinian refugees?Have they not already been "pushed into the sea?"
[Joe Dees 2] Neither side is gonna be able to expel or extinguish the other.
[Hermit 3] The Palestinians can't. But watch what happens during WW III if humanity lasts that long.
[Joe Dees 2] These Siamese twins have to , both of them, realize that when they slap each others' faces, each slap hurts both of them.
[Hermit 3] This probably goes for other nations too.
---- This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of Virus BBS. <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=25915>
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