From: Hermit (hidden@lucifer.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 2002 - 19:18:02 MDT
[Hermit 6] Do I have to explain it again. You claimed that 50% of Palestinian deaths were caused by the murder of collaborators. I posted
numbers from various >sources (PRCS, HRW, Amnesty International) refuting this - all of which you rejected as biased without providing reasons. Rhinoceros posted a B'tselem article about the first intifada (which we were not discussing). You raptured effusively ecstatic, praised the article to the hilt, and asserted that the 600 or so deaths mentioned there proved your contention that 50% of Palestinian casualties were caused by Palestians killing one another off. I posted a refutation based on numbers from B'tselem and HRW, whereupon you proceeded to tear the organizations apart and explained why they were biased and you didn't believe them. I pointed out the discrepancy between comparing numbers from the first intifada with the second and you danced. I pointed out that you were comparing oranges and apples and impeaching youre own sources! and you weaseled. I gave up trying to convince you. Everyone else could see you were blowing shit from
your ears. It didn't take me to make it self-evident.
[Jonathan 7] Assuming you are correct, and a mere 30% of Palestinian deaths were self-inflicted - does it change the core point? Nope. The Palestinian Authority and the various terrorist/gangsters inflict as much if not more misery on their people that any Israeli occupation force.
[Hermit 8] You should have read the original threads. Because according to the sources cited this is far from a complete or accurate portrayal.
[Joe Dees 5] Your diatribes consist mainly in condemnation of the 'uncivilized Israelis' and cheerleading for the 'civilized Palestinians".
[Hermit 6] You are a liar and I challenge you to find one place where I
have claimed that the Palestinians are any more "civilized" than the
Israelis.
[Jonathan 7] Indeed. You just claim the Israelis are beastly and uncivilised whilst ignoring the Palestinians and the fact that Israeli is at war in an unprecedented conflict.
[Hermit 8] Nonsense. This conflict is an age old one. A bunch of invaders steal somebody else's country and ethnically cleans the original inhabitants. Only the effectiveness and volume of propaganda which leads some people to imagine that one side is superior to the other is new.
[Hermit 6] Of course, the Israelis are as I proved in my response to Jonathan, not by any modern Western definition civilized at all.
[Jonathan 7] Ahh..here we go...
[Hermit 6] Neither for that matter are the Palestinians these days.
[Jonathan 7] You bet.
[Hermit 6] But
[Jonathan 7] Damn, just when I saw a breakthrough..
[Hermit 6] the Palestinians have a much better claim in law, in blood and in equity than the Israelis ever will have.
[Jonathan 7] Bollox. They have a better claim in blood to the title of "The benighted" - but that is it.
[Hermit 8] You've spent all yoiur time arguing instead of reading my researched response, haven't you?
[Hermit 8] Law: It was their land. The World gave some of it to Israel. Israel grabbed all of it. The world has said that Israel has to give it back. Israel hasn't done so.
[Hermit 8] Equity: Israel is prima fascia engaged in racial cleansing. The Israeli's own over 80% of the Palestinian territory and control all of it. Their aggression and destabilization of Palestinian culture is plain for anyone to see. Both sides have a right to self-determination and "the pursuit of happinees." Only Israel has this right now (except in so far as Palestinians are able to prevent them).
[Hermit 8] Blood: In excess of 4 Million Palestinians are in exile, living in concentration camps. The direct and indirect Palestinian death toll is in excess of 100'000, versus a total Israeli death toll under a tenth of that. Israel and her prime minister has been responsible for massive butchery of Palestinians which make Saddam look almost benign.
[Hermit 4] Perhaps. He would probably have, as I am often tempted, said
"Fuck it, these assholes are not with responding to" and ignored it.
Particularly if he had been called names.
[Joe Dees 5] Exactly what Bill Roh seems to have done with respect to
Hermit.
[Hermit 6] Nope. The saga is visible in the first few pages of the Current
News section of "Serious Business." I suggest you check it out before making up fantasies. Bill got pissed off because, seemingly like you, once his patriotism button was pushed, he couldn't argue a case for shit.
[Jonathan 7] There is no need for this Herm. You are letting yourself own with this sort of bitterness.
[Hermit 8] I didn't raise the subject, and called it as I see it. You were not involved, so it is hard to see how your input at this stage will assist.
[Hermit 6] Israel had apparently done such a good job of programming him, that he saw negative comments on Israel and the US news as being "anti-American," apparently forgetting that the US once saw the ability to makes such comments as valuable.
[Jonathan 7] I doubt this is fair. Your contempt drips out of this passage: He was programmed...come on.
[Hermit 8] If you are going to comment, at least read the threads before doing so.
[Hermit 6] He resented the fact that I was prepared to take the time to demonstrate that that Israel was at the least unpleasant and uncivilized
[Jonathan 7] Ahem, you tried to argue this and you have failed so far to convince me, or Joe, or Bill and perhaps many others. Time for a radical rethink perhaps?
[Hermit 8] Nope, I did the research and made the case as I saw it. I'm almost always correct about such things. Just because some people can't tell a raven from a writing desk is no reason for me to abandon reason.
[Hermit 6] and that support for Israel and current US policies made the situation worse. He asserted that this did not fairly represent the CoV and insisted that I should write both sides of the story". As I refused to do that, and he couldn't be bothered to take the time to do so himself, he departed in high dudgeon, having rejected offers to attempt to reach resolution.
[Jonathan 7] Because you are an actor in this drama it is probably best if you leave the matter alone and let David try an sort out that most unfortunate spat.
[Hermit 8] Because you were not, and seemingly know nothing about it, or what was done to attempt to resolve it, perhaps you might consider backing out.
[Joe Dees 5] Actually, you have been, on this list at least, a gargantuan
contributor to a drumbeat flood of subsequently discredited propagandistic rantings, reflexively seeing every fact and opinion that is not skewed to your Orwellian extreme as bigoted and ignorant.
[Hermit 6] Unsubstantiated uninvited and unpaid opinion Joe. And worth
what all such opinion is.
[Jonathan 7] You and Joe have been leveling this sort of unnecessary charge at each other. I would advise you both to stop the personal stuff.
[Hermit 7] Good advice. But I doubt Joe will take it. And, I'll play along with him for as long as it takes <grin>. Statistically I am likely to outlive Joe. So with some luck I'll get in the the last word.
[Hermit 4] Brian Magee missed a point here. Popper always chose his
arguments and his opponents carefully. He would walk out of a room rather than argue with fools.
[Joe Dees 5] As Bill Roh did, apparently.
[Hermit 6] Repeating yourself now? Anyone can choose to leave. Or stay.
The CoV will continue. It doesn't depend on individuals. Attempting to make me feel guilty about this, will not work. And asserting that, "you drove him away", will not persuade anyone with the ability to think. Try another tack. This one smells funny.
[Jonathan 7] True. There is no point is dredging up the row with Bill. I hope it is resolved soon.
[Hermit 8] You have no idea at all do you?
[Joe Dees 5] When you begin to pile up your straw men and red herrings
like so much cordwood, it is surpassingly obvious who is the prime
malefactor
[Hermit 6] In your opinion. But when you end each argument calling people names, telling lies, impeaching your own sources, making disparaging remarks instead of presenting facts, then I draw my own conclusions, which differ from yours
[Jonathan 7] You call people names too. Neither of you tell lies. You both appeal to authority - which we know is a fallacy. As for disparaging remarks you are definitely equally guilty there.
[Hermit 8] Sure I call people names and make disparaging remarks. As said before, it is measure for measure. But my heart is pure. As for an appeal to authority, please cite an example of where I did this?
[Hermit 6] - and I'm sure others do the same. The difference between you and I seems to be that I don't care what others think - and you, quite evidently do.
[Jonathan 7] Come now Hermit. You cannot know if Joe gives a damn or not what people think. He has fought very unpopular positions not at all in keeping wit the charge of caring what people think. As for you claim that you are unconcerned what people think of you - is that because you do not respect their opinions or because you know better than everyone?
[Hermit 8] I can see what Joe does. And he has not yet ever dropped a thread no matter how ridiculous his position. He always has to get in the last word - indicitave of great concern for how he is perceived. Look for yourself. Don't listen to words, look at the evidence.
[Hermit 8] And for me, I never respect unsupported position (opinions) and I usually do sufficient research to know as much as possible. So you could say that both hypothesii apply.
[Hermit 4] I read it. I spent a day responding to it. I hope you read the
response. Judging by the fact that you seem to uncritically singing in the
"Israel good - Palestinian bad" chorus, I doubt it will do any good, but you might find challenging your preconceptions interesting.
[Joe Dees 5] It would be interesting to see if Hermit could ever challenge
his 'Palestinians good - Israelis bad" preconceptions, but I doubt if he
could muster the mustards of objectivity required to even begin.
[Hermit 6] Once Joe Dees could have seen that the question of "good" and "bad" was largely irrelevant when it comes to matters of state.
[Jonathan 7] Now we get somewhere! I agree with you here (sort of).
[Hermit 8] <sarcasm> How kind. </sarcasm> It would be more compelling if argued.
[Jonathan 7] Even "bad" and "worse," as applies in the Israeli situation, doesn't matter much.
[Jonathan 7] Yet it is invoked to drum up support for either side.
[Hermit 8] But the fact that I know you have not yet done the research on this topic makes this opinion relatively worthless.
[Hermit 6] The questions have to be addressed as matters of equity, law and effectiveness - as good and bad depends on a perspective, which is not present.
[Jonathan 7] Indeed. Good point my friend. Please keep it up.
[Hermit 8] When I seek to be patronized, I will find people whom I respect to do so.
[Hermit 8] Joe Dees, in common with many Americans appears to be so tied up in moral agonizing that he has
[Jonathan 7] Here are those personal attacks and disparaging comments you were talking about earlier.
[Hermit 8] My hypothesis. Appears to be. To me. He used to be competent at analysis. He appears no longer to be competent to do so. Some explanation is required. What is your hypothesis?
[Hermit 6] lost sight of the fact that any interactions which do not achieve those objectives are doomed to fail. And usually, men being what they are, this results in people dying to no purpose.
[Jonathan 7] Here at the very end you have indicated a return to the type of incisive and independent thinking that I so admire in you.
[Hermit 8] Nope. I think like this all the time. It is just that you can't see it when I disagree with you <grin>.
[Jonathan 7] Onwards and upwards comrades. We will laugh about these fights one day.
[Hermit 8] I laugh about them all the time, including now. When not wondering about the sanity of my friends. Meanwhile, what are you doing quoting C.S. Lewis?
Kind regards
Hermit
---- This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of Virus BBS. <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=26000>
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