From: Jonathan Davis (jonathan.davis@lineone.net)
Date: Thu Aug 15 2002 - 06:58:05 MDT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hermit" <hidden@lucifer.com>
To: <virus@lucifer.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 11:13 AM
Subject: Re:virus: Talking Genocide
>
> [Joe Dees] First, Hermit, I wonder why Pol Pot, Rwanda and Armenia were
not mentioned. Just curious.
>
> [Hermit] Genocide. Horrible. Not perpetrated by supposedly civilized
states.
Is this an admission that the Israelis are more civilized (and consequently
more responsible) than their Palestinian enemies?
> [Joe Dees] Second, and more germane, the total Palestinian death toll, in
both intifadehs, has been in the low thousands;
>
> [Hermit] A better picture might be grasped when we realize that Israel has
been almost continuously at war throughout its existence....
Looks like a knee to the windpipe to me....
SNIP
> [Hermit] Or 4:1 for the entire period.
Joe was talking about contemporary figures. You are unilaterally changing
the period of reference to try and falsify his claim.
> [Hermit] Now looking at current figures (i.e. 2nd Intifada):
> Palestinians Killed by Israelis: 2126
> Israelis killed by Palestinians: 299
>
> [Hermit] Or 7:1 for the current period. This is a disturbing trend.
No, this is a disturbing trend:
Israelis killed by suicide bombings alone in Israel:-
2000 - 4
2001 - 75
2002 - 165 (so far)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1197051.stm
> [Hermit] An analysis of suicide bombing I have performed, reflecting only
bombings where at least one victim other than the bomber occurred, there
have been a >total of 32. Here is their distribution.
> 01 Mar 2 (4th Netanya) (28th Mifgash Hashalom gas station, East of Kfar
Saba)
> 01 Apr 1 (22nd Kfar Saba)
> 01 May 1 (18th Netanya)
> 01 Jun 1 (1st Dolphinarium in Tel Aviv)
> 01 Jul
> 01 Aug 1 (9th Jerusalem)
> 01 Sep
> 01 Oct 1 (7th Kibbutz Sheluhot - Beit She'an Valley)
> 01 Nov 1 (29th Hadera)
> 01 Dec 2 (1st West Jerusalem) (2nd Haifa)
> 02 Jan 1 (27th West Jerusalem)
> 02 Feb
> 02 Mar 9 (2nd Beit Yisrael - West Jerusalem) (5th Afula - Northern
Israel) (9th - cafe West Jerusalem) (20th bus on Wadi Ara road) (21st West
Jerusalem) (27th Park hotel in Netanya) (30th Kiryat Yovel - West Jerusalem)
(30th Tel Aviv) (31st cafe in Haifa)
> 02 Apr 2 (10th Yagur junction, near Haifa) (12th Market entrance - West
Jerusalem)
> 02 May 4 (6th Rishon Letzion, Central Israel) (19th Netanya) (22nd Rishon
Letzion , Central Israel) (27th Petah Tikva, Central Israel)
> 02 Jun 2 (6th Herzeliya, in Central Israel) (18th West Jerusalem)
> 02 Jul 2 (17th Tel Aviv) (31st Hebrew University Mt. Scopus campus, West
Jerusalem)
> 02 Aug 1 (4th Bus, Meron Jucntion - Northern Israel)
Please share your sources so we can valibate, anayse and interpret
ourselves.
> [Hermit] I would suggest that this distribution indicates that Israeli
terrorism and military action against the Palestinian population has
seemingly not prevented >bombings unless you wish to offer proof to the
contrary.
This if faulty reasoning at its worst. One there is no Israeli terrorism, so
don't try and sneak it in as an implied premise.
Only Palestinians can stop attempting to carry out suicide bombing. All that
Israeli can and is doing is resists the Palestinian attempts. This is what
Israeli military action does. The Palestinians have ramped up their efforts
since Sept 11th , the Israelis have reacted accordingly. The BBC reports
that for every bomber that succeeds there are several that are caught.
>On the other hand, as in all terrorism, police work and intelligence has.
Indeed. Mossad is certainly working away too. Why do you think there are
collaborators?
> [Joe Dees] Saddam Hussein killed more Kurds than that in ONE chemical
weapons attack on a Kurdish village, while suffering losses in the teens,
not in the thousands, as the Israelis have also lost through the two
intifadehs. There's no 3:1 ratio going on there; more like 3000:1.
>
> [Hermit] Firstly, as shown here, your numbers are hopelessly out of line
with all other estimates I have found (one night of research later).
Show us your sources please.
> So perhaps you should now reveal your sources.
What do you need confirmed? Numbers of Iraqi Kurds killed by Saddam's regime
in the chemical attack on 16 March 1988? According to the BBC and other
there were 5,000 dead and 7,000 .
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1877161.stm
>Secondly, we should not forget that he used US supplied chemical weapons
diverted from killing Iranians.
Allegedly. It is also irrelevant.
>If they had been used as intended, nobody would have said a word.
You know this huh? How? Please elaborate.
SNIP
>
> [Hermit] And none of these death tolls take infant mortality differentials
into account (and the 6:1 ratio between Israeli Jew and Palestinian adds up
quickly) and >they don't take into account the nearly 5 million Palestinians
in camps around the Middle East - all with the right to return - agreed to
in Oslo - which is denied to >them. Thats ethnic cleansing. When do we plan
on attacking Tel Aviv?
Another dollop of sophistic crap. Let me dry it out and blow it away.
1. Infant mortality. You are trying somehow to blame Israel for this. What
is your reasoning? Please be explicit. Is Israel responsible for the infant
morality rate in all its neighbours? It is just that the mortality rates for
all the local Arabs appears to be very similar. The Israelis being more
civilised probably take better care of their children and have developed
better health care programmes than their neighbours. Is this their fault for
being superior?
2. Refugees. Those 5 million refugees only want a piece of Israel. Why not a
bit of Jordan or Lebanon or Syria too? The Basque recognise that the Basque
region is divided between several countries - they want it all back. The
Kurds too. The Palestinians just want Israel - tiny little Israel.
Please post evidence that the 5 million refugees want to immigrate, and
why - given that the Oslo accords conditions have been abandoned by the
Palestinians - the Israeli should comply with it if they were asked to.
> [Joe Dees] And still you embrace Saddam and condemn Israel. That says more
about you than it does about either of them.
>
> [Hermit] Your argument too weak to stand without lies?
Ad hominem boy gets nasty.
>The fact that you continue to attempt to assert that I embrace Saddam says
more about you than about me.
Do you embrace anything Hermit? Is there a nation state, group, set of
ideas, that you are loyal to and embrace? Just curious. You seem to spend a
lot of time criticising you adoptive homeland. In fact I am most surprised
you chose to make your home there (and pay taxes to its government) as you
clearly despise it.
> [Hermit] The fact that I condemn Israel - and the United States - for
their actions in the Middle East - says more about the fact that these
supposedly civilised >countries blather about "moral actions", claiming
moral superiority while engaging in genocide.
Oh boy, that word being abused again. Here are some REAL genocides, pogroms
and massacres.:
l. Over 10,000 thousand Aleuts killed by Russians - Aleutian Islands 1745-70
2. Several thousand Beothuk Indians killed by the French and Micmawas -
Newfoundland 1497-1829
3. Over 1,000,000 American Indians killed by white Setters - US 1620-1890
4. Over 1,000,000 Caribbean Indians killed by Spaniards - West Indies 1992 -
1890
5. Over 1,000,000 Indians killed by Spaniards - Central & South America
1498-1824
6. Over 10,000 Araucarian Indians killed by Argentinians - Argentina 1870's
7. Over 10,000 Protestants killed by Catholics - France 1572
8. Over 10,000 Bushmen & Hottentots (Khoin) killed by Boers and Bantu's -
South Africa 1652-1795
9. Over 100,000 Aborigines killed by white settlers - Australia 1788 - 1928
10.Several thousand Tasmanians killed by white settlers - Tasmania 1800-1876
11. Several thousand Morioris killed by Maoris - Chatham Islands 1835
12. Over 4 Million Jews, gypsies, Poles, Russians killed by Nazis - occupied
Europe 1939 - 45
13. Over 100,000 Serbs killed by Croats - Yugoslavia 1941- 45
14. Over 10,000 Polish officers killed by Russians - Katyn 1940
15. Over 10,000 Jews killed by Ukrainians - Ukraine 1917-20
16. Over 10,000,000 political opponents killed by Russian communists -
Russia 1929-39
17. Over 100,000 ethnic minorities killed by ethnic Russians - Russia
1943 -46
18. Ovr 1,000,000 Armenians killed by Turks - Armenia 1915
19. Over 10,000 Herero's killed by Germans - Southwest Africa 1904
20. Over 100,000 Hindus, Moslems killed by Moslems, Hindus - India,
Pakistan 1947 - 48
21. Over 10,000 Brazilian Indians killed by Brazilians - Brazil 1957-68
22. Several thousand Ache Indians killed by Paraguayans - Paraguay 1970s
23. Over 10,000 Argentine civilians killed by Argentine army - Argentina
1976-83
24. Over 10,000 Moslems, Christians killed by Christians, Moslems - Lebanon
1975-90
25. Several thousand Ibos killed by North Nigerians - Nigeria 1966
26. Several thousand opponents killed by dictatorship - Equatorial Guinea
1977-79
27. Several thousand opponents killed by Emperor Bokassa - Central African
Republic 1978-79
28. Over 100,000 South Sudanese killed by North Sudanese - Sudan 1955-72
29. Over 100,000 Ugandans killed by Idi Amin - Uganda 1971-79
30. Over 10,000 Tutsi killed by Hutu's - Rwanda 1962-63
31. 100,000 Hutu killed by Tutsi's - Burundi 1972-73
32. Several thousand Arabs killed by Blacks - Zanzibar 1964
33. Several thousand Tamils, Singhalese killed by Sinhalese, Tamils - Sri
Lanka 1985
34. Over 1,000,000 Bengalis killed by Pakistan army - Bangladesh 1971
35. Over 1,000,000 Cambodians killed by the Khmer Rouge - Cambodia 1975-79
36. Over 100,000 communists & Chinese killed by Indonesians - Indonesia
1965-67
37. Tens of thousands of Timorese killed by Indonesians - East Timor
1975-76
This list stops at 1990 therefore does not include the Balkan Wars, Kosovo,
the 800,000 Tutsi's murdered by Hutus in 1994, or recent activity in East
Timor.
Please explain - now in context of REAL genocides - how you can
conscionably use this potent word so wantonly?
>The stench of Genocide is bad enough without attempting to deodorize it.
Like a cat trying to cover its poop on a vinyl floor, or attempting to cover
up racist >bigotry by asserting that it is just a cultural difference.
I could only read this with one eye, so embarrassed was I to read this
empurpled and declamatory prose. Waves of cringing are still travelling
through me.
Regards
Jonathan
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