From: joedees@bellsouth.net
Date: Mon Aug 19 2002 - 23:19:35 MDT
On 19 Aug 2002 at 21:35, Mermaid . wrote:
> [Joe Dees]And what about the Muslim populations of Jordan, Syria,
> Lebanon, Egypt, etc.?
>
> [Mermaid]What about them? Israel was created in 1948. These countries
> and their indegenous populations, on the other hand, are native to the
> region. What about them? Dont they have the right to exist and live
> and multiply which has been their motherland for several generations?
>
They are sources of danger from outside Israel's borders, having waged
several wars on her in the last 55 years. I am counting their
populations when I point our how outnumbered the Israelis are.
>
> [Joe Dees]Nope, but it doesn't NOT apply to them, either.
>
> [Mermaid]It pleases me that you think so...but I am wary of basking in
> the seeming warmth of your consideration. But, its nice to hear you
> say that for a change.
>
I just ant both sides to live in peace together. But as long as one side is
attacking the other, that other side has the right to defend itself - even
when it's militarily stronger.
>
> [Joe Dees]I think the Peruvian thing is just stupid of the Israelis to
> allow and smart of the peruvians to scam on,
>
> [Mermaid]The Peruvians are scamming the Israelis? The Israelis who
> recruit Peruvians and put them through a crash course conversion to
> Judaism in two weeks? So Israel picks up a poor South American and
> promise him money if he converts to a diff religion, learn a different
> language and move to a war torn area if he would claim stray land as
> his and squat on it. Israel purposefully puts innocent people in the
> path of danger(much like human shields..but they are not really "Jews"
> for them..although they are jewish citizens when they get killed and
> when they get reported in the media)for a price.
>
They're just getting paid to trade one guerrila war for another; at least
they don't starve in Israel. Having said that, I believe that the practice
is senseless and unethical and should be ended.
>
> [Joe Dees]...but I do draw a distinction between relocating for money
> and suicide bombing for it.
>
> [Mermaid]I dont draw a distinction between Peruvian 'Jews' who
> immigrate to Israel and the suicide bombers recruited by terrorists
> groups. Both of them are victims.
>
But one is a murderer.
>
> One gets a nation's citizenship if
> he takes a risk. The other has no homeland to call his own and loses
> nothing if he dies.
>
Except his life. Without that, nothing else can be had or gained.
>
> One does it for money. The other does it for his
> freedom.
>
The dead are not free; they're just dead.
>
> One is pushed by a group who is willing to sacrifice other
> people for their cause. The other is pushed into it by conviction and
> brainwashing by those with radical views and homicidal/violent
> tendencies.
>
This is true enough.
>
> You call the former 'stupid' and the latter 'evil'. I call
> the former 'evil' and the latter 'evil'. A slight digression. Some
> might even say that they deserve each other. Do you feel that way, Joe
> Dees? 'Evil' deserves an equal match?
>
I consider murderers to be more evil than squatters, as I consider life to
be more essential and valuable than property - as do most people.
>
> [Joe Dees]Apparently, you do not.
>
> [Mermaid]You might feel that way given your condition.
>
I sincerely doubt it.
>
> [Joe Dees]There has been testimony from Palestinian parents of
> successful suicide bombers who stated that they were proud of their
> dead little assassin progeny and that they hoped that some of their
> siblings would join them.
>
> [Mermaid]Well..they are dead. If your child died, would you berate
> your dead offspring? What is so terrible about that? However, your
> claim is a generalisation. Back it up if you think its not. I'll buy
> it then.
>
I easily found and posted one article; I can find more if that is not
enough, I'm sure.
>
> [Joe Dees]As frequently? It is wrong for either side to do it in MY
> book, but you apparently condemn one and cheerlead the other.
>
> [Mermaid]Do I? Are you sure?
>
I haven't heard much condemnation from you concerning Palestinian
suicide bombers, just how much you understand and empathize with
them.
>
> [Joe Dees]It ain't gonna happen. They'd prefer to kill them and
> publicly exhibit their dead bodies.
>
> [Mermaid]I blame Israel! Being a democracy and spy recruiter, it is
> their moral duty to embrace these collaborators and grant them Israeli
> citizenship. Of course, they have to reward them monetarily. Let them
> learn Hebrew even! Why are they not rescuing their Arab helpers? It is
> an abomination and a travesty. I register my horror and protest.
>
They do in fact relocate many collaborators inside Israel proper, but
many more are killed before Israel can do so.
>
> [Joe Dees]Actually, ummm, no. I do not think that you can show me
> where entire families in a home, including women and children, have
> been systematically gunned down by IDF forces.
>
> [Mermaid]http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?sto
> ry=317538
>
> They have US backing. They dropped a missile. To get one man. 15 died.
>
O have already remarked in this very discussion concerning Saleh
Shehadeh, a founding member of Hamas and the leader of their military
wing, who facilitated the suicide bombing deaths of over one hundred
Israelis, mostly teens. He used his family as human shields, and the
Israelis decided that they valued the lives of the next hundred Israelis
he would kill if not stopped more than they valued the lives of his family.
To launch a missile into that building is to accept the necessity of
collateral damage in order to destroy a lethal and dangerous target; it is
not the same as for gunmen to walk through a house with rifles blazing,
indiscriminately killing anything that moves. You have not been able to
show me Israelis doing that, but I can post articles of Palestinians doing
it.
>
> [Joe Dees]I support both sides living in their own separate states in
> peace, but I do not see the Palestinian militants as willing to accept
> any solution that includes Israeli survival.
>
> [Mermaid]Neither does the Israeli terror government want to allow the
> Palestinian life, land or water. They are still matched, arent they?
>
The Israelis are willing to give the Palestinians all of these, just not as
much as they demand, for if they did, there could be no more Israel.
>
> [Mermaid]Dont you see? The victims on both sides are the civilians.
> The aggressors on both the sides are those who dont care about the
> civilians. Why is it that you do not make the distinction between the
> suffering of the common man on the Palestinian street and the manaical
> freedom fighters when you can make the distinction between suicide
> bombers and paid third world mercenaries.
>
When the majority of the Palestinian common men vocally support the
suicide bombings, there is a major problem with declaring them to be
innocent victims of measures designed to deter suicide bombings, for
their own words and actions influence others to adopt such a path. And
the suicide bombers' families ARE paid - by Saddam Hussein.
>
> [Joe Dees]I'm not the terrible human being; the jihadists and their
> cheerleaders are the morally bankrupt ones, but they're too
> self-righteously blind to see same.
>
> [Mermaid]I dont believe that you are a terrible human being either.
> And yes, they are. I hope they, along with the zionist, racists who
> run the so-called democracy in Israel get swallowed by the desert or
> the sea and leave the people of Israel and Palestine to live side by
> side. I do think both of them want to live and they want their
> children to live. I also wish the US will stop interfering and
> meddling in the Middle East and keep America safe for the americans.
> That is the first and only responsibility of the state. Israel is not
> the 51st state of the Union. We should stop giving them money to fight
> and only help if they are in trouble with the basic ameneties.
>
So the antisemitic racists upset you, too? Strange how you've never
accentuated that point before...but as long as Iraqi and Saudi deep
pockets use US dollars paid for their oil to finance Palestinian terror,
Israel will need US military assistance.
>
> [Joe Dees]I have seen selective condemnation here that...
>
> [Mermaid]Me too.
>
> [Joe Dees]...indicates a great deal of antisemitism, including
> contorted and convoluted apologetics for 70+ Palestinian suicide
> bombings of Israelis in the past year.
>
> [Mermaid]I dont think they are anti-semites just as you are not(i
> hope)a prejudiced being who hates all Moslems and Arabs for your
> country's tragedy.
>
No, I do not hate all Muslims, but I DO have a problem with the easy
amenability of the religious ideology to slippery-slope into aggressive
and violent extremism. You may deplore the virus without hating the
infectees.
>
> [Mermaid]I do not see them as apologetics(I know I am not one!), but
> rather as people who try to find cause and effect instead of making
> one party bear all responsibility. Afterall, we do know that every
> action has an equal and opposite reaction..right? Nothing, afterall,
> comes from nothing.
>
So of COURSE an avalanche of suicide bombings would lead to Israeli
incursions to wipe out the bomb harness factories and to apprehend the
suicide bomber recruiters.
>
> [Joe Dees]Why the absence of condemnation for that continues drumbeat
> of atrocity, hunh?
>
> [Mermaid]I dont know. It could be because the media is biased and
> Israel is manipulating information and in an effort to earn world
> support and sympathy, she is trying all sorts of underhand tricks that
> blocks free flow of information. Of course, a snake doesnt donate its
> venom as an antidote after striking its victim. Noone expects Israel
> to accept and acknowledge the atrocities committed on her own people
> and others. The only way to combat disinformation is to break it down.
> If that constitutes as 'anti-semitism', then it is an unfortunate,
> inappropriate and incorrect term for the purposes of this never ending
> debate.
>
That's an ANSWER?!? Blame the Israeli conspiracy media machine for
peoples' seeming inability to mourn the deaths of Israelis while they
rant, rage and rave at palestinian deaths? If it IS an Israeli conspiracy,
it is either a suicidal one or is doing a piss poor propaganda job.
>
> [Joe Dees]I thought so. To the antisemites here, they deserve to die,
> and why? Just because they're Jews.
>
> [Mermaid]Yea. I'd imagine you would think something like that. Again,
> its your fantasy. Enjoy it. I'll send you a shipment of Kleenex..:)
> It's late. Sleepy. Goodnight.
>
Can you furnish another reason that makes a modicum of sense?
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________ Send
> and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
>
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Wed Sep 25 2002 - 13:28:54 MDT