From: joedees@bellsouth.net
Date: Sun Sep 15 2002 - 23:30:44 MDT
On 15 Sep 2002 at 22:57, Hermit wrote:
>
> Lies, damned lies, and distortions by Dees(tm)
>
Wishful dismissal of a strongly supported analysis by Hrmit (ass)
>
> What these brilliant liars do not mention is that all Israeli men are
> combatants...
>
Including 9 and below? It's the Palestinian infants who are dressed up
as terrorists for those cute li'l pictures...
>
> And when they assert: The coming months will reveal whether or not
> these patterns were maintained throughout the Israeli offensive. If
> the Jenin experience is indicative - Human Rights Watch declared that
> no massacre or systematic killing of Palestinian civilians by Israeli
> forces occurred during heavy house-to-house fighting, notwithstanding
> Palestinian claims and heavy international criticism of Israel - then
> it can reasonably be assumed that the pattern is more or less fixed.
> They are being positively Deesian in their deliberate use of
> misdirection.
>
Human right watch could not have found dead that were not killed;
B'Tselem has logged every individual verifiable death in the entire area
since 1993, and ascribed causes to each of them. If a massacre had
occurred in Jenin, the deaths would have been reported by the family
and/or friends of the deceased. It didn't happen, however much you
want it to have; Not only do you not care for the Palestinians as people
(only as anti-Israeli props), you'd love for a shitload of Palestinians to
have been killed in Jenin just so you could rave at the Israelis about it.
Well, you're outta luck because most of the Jenin Palestinians are in
luck, that is, alive.
>
> Here is what Human Rights Watch really says:
>
> Source: http://staging.hrw.org/press/2002/08/jenin080202.htm
> U.N. Jenin Report "Flawed"
>
> (New York, August 2, 2002) The U.N. report on events in Jenin is
> seriously flawed, Human Rights Watch said today. The report, mandated
> by a U.N. General Assembly resolution after Israeli objections forced
> the Secretary-General to disband a U.N. fact-finding team, largely
> limits itself to presenting competing accounts of the events during
> the Israeli military operations.
>
> "The report doesn't move us forward in terms of establishing the
> truth," said Hanny Megally, executive director of the Middle East and
> North Africa Division of Human Rights Watch. "Its watered-down account
> of the very serious violations in Jenin exposes the risk of compiling
> a report without any first-hand information."
>
> While the report describes some general allegations that have been
> made about the conduct of the Israeli and Palestinian sides during the
> Israeli operation, it draws almost no conclusions on the merits of
> those claims. It makes only limited reference to the obligations of
> the parties under international law, makes few clear conclusions about
> violations of that law, and does not raise the issue of accountability
> for serious violations that may have been committed, some of which
> rise to the level of war crimes. Its information and analysis are
> strongest when dealing with the blockage of humanitarian and medical
> access to the camp.
>
> Human Rights Watch said part of the report's problems stems from the
> terms of its mandate. Set up by a U.N. General Assembly resolution
> after the Secretary-General was forced by Israel's objections to
> disband a U.N. fact-finding mission, the report was collated from
> existing sources. The report was hampered still further when the
> government of Israel did not comply with the United Nation's request
> for information.
>
> "Even with what they had, they could have done more," Megally said.
>
> Examples of the report's failings include the following:
> It refers to the fact that civilians died in the operation, without
> examining the circumstances of their deaths. It makes no mention of
> the strong evidence suggesting that some were willfully killed, such
> as Jamal Fayid, a 37-year old paralyzed man, who was crushed in the
> rubble of his home on April 7 after Israel Defense Forces (IDF)
> soldiers refused to allow his family time to remove him from their
> home before a bulldozer destroyed it.
>
> The U.N. report mentions that missiles were "at times" fired from
> helicopters, minimizing evidence suggesting that their use was intense
> and indiscriminate in Jenin camp, particularly on April 6 when
> missiles caught many sleeping civilians.
>
> In its section dealing with abuses outside Jenin, the report fails to
> consider the systematic targeting of the offices of Palestinian media
> organizations, as well as the serious impediments faced by
> international journalists and human rights monitors attempting to
> document events.
>
> It does not discuss what, if any, steps the parties have taken to
> investigate credible allegations of violations of international
> humanitarian law raised in the report-vital for ensuring
> accountability and discouraging future violations. Human Rights Watch
> researchers spent three weeks on the ground, including in Jenin camp,
> immediately following the operation. Researchers gathered detailed
> accounts from victims and witnesses, carefully corroborating and
> independently crosschecking their accounts with those of others to
> reconstruct a detailed picture of events in the camp in April 2002.
> The findings were published in a 52-page report, "Jenin: IDF Military
> Operations." In early May, the Israel Defense Forces made a commitment
> to investigate every incident documented in the report. To date, Human
> Rights Watch has had no response from the IDF as to the progress of
> any such investigations.
>
> In addition, even if only to prevent impeaching himself, Joe McPees
> should have been more selective in choosing the Israeli propaganda he
> elected to forward here.
>
> Contrast the cited article:Finally, B'Tselem's self-referential claims
> are essentially trustworthy because B'Tselem cares about its
> international reputation. It is a past winner of the Carter-Menil
> Award for Human Rights and has received financial support from
> numerous foreign governments and international non-governmental
> organizations (NGOs). Its reports have frequently been cited by other
> leading international human rights organizations, such as Human Rights
> Watch, Amnesty International, and Derechos. Similarly, both its
> publications and data are also referred to in official Palestinian
> Authority reports and in reports by Palestinian NGOs such as the
> Palestinian Society for the Protection of Human Rights and the
> Environment (PSPHRE) and the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group
> (PHRMG).11 In short, if there are any errors in the B'Tselem data on
> Palestinian mortality, they are more likely to overestimate than
> underestimate the number of deaths.
>
> With Joe Dees' assertions about B'Tselem : [ "Re: virus: Dear Hermit:
> You Constitutionally Can't Admit When You Lose", Joe Dees, 2002-08-08
> (http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;thread
> id=26000;start=0) ] Most of what you have posted here, like is to be
> expected of the overwhelming predominance ot sources slanted in the
> direction of Palestinian advocacy, either turns a blind eye to the
> problem and ignores the collaborator deaths entirely for their
> particular reports, or perhaps assigns other causes or circumstances
> to them (for instance that they were murderers or drug dealers, or
> were killed by IDF or undercover Israeli forces or collaborators),
> causes and circumstances which may or may not be be true. The few
> cases they actually do mention, they mention in a purely anecdotal
> fashion, as if it were in fact existent but rare, but such is clearly
> indeed not the case. ... The evidence you present is simply not from
> sources that are either as credible (due to objectivity vs. advocacy
> issues) or as complete as that which rhinocerous presented for an
> earlier period [Hermit: Worth reminding Joe McPees that Rhinoceros'
> source was B'Tselem]; quite simply, his evidence is more believeable
> than yours. And it is to be suspected that the more-out-of-control
> circumstances of the present intifadeh regarding terror organizations,
> vs. the more in-hand situation in existence during the first, augurs
> for more deaths, not less, as terror organizations are unquestionably
> responsible for the elephants' share of Palestinians murdered as
> Israeli collaborators in all periods. ... I attempt, in my analyses,
> interpretations, acknowledgements and judgments, to both give
> profferred information all the credit, influence and weight it duly
> deserves, and to deny it more. That has always been the way I have
> endeavored to operate. Unlike you, apparently.
>
And the funny thing is that the info that came from the Rhinocerous
article WAS, after some debate, accepted by both you and me as
authoritative; this came from the same place (B'Tselem), but since you
despise the conclusions (they contradict your ViciousJew (tm) fantasy),
you're gonna attempt to split hairs within a single organization, and
accept one of their studies while rejecting the other. You're dirty on this
one, Hermit, and it won't wash.
>
> ----
> This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
> Virus BBS.
> <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;thread
> id=26611>
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