From: Hermit (virus@hermit.net)
Date: Wed Sep 03 2003 - 05:03:57 MDT
[Jonathan 2] This appears to be a handy cop out. "Before" refers to time/space and since time/space
only started at Big Bang, there can be no "before" Big Bang. Only that is the very problem: From
whence/what comes space/time?
[Hermit] From a gravitational fluctuation in the quantum flux. Happens all the time. We've measured
it. Hint: Zero Point Energy. All is made clear here. Please read the many-times-provided link
(http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=32;action=display;threadid=28497;start=0) before you
make statements which run counter to the well accepted consensus position (or become abusive). I
can't summarise it in a line which will somehow convey all of the state of cosmology to you. You
have to be prepared, willing and have the time to do some work yourself.
[Jonathan 2] I suspect there were crypto-sceptics, but do you know of any?
[Hermit] I suppose I should say I don't have the time either. The Internet Encyclopedia of
Philosophy (http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/) is a good research tool, as is the WikiPedia
(http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism). But here are a few starting points, people who raised
sceptical issues in their works, and where I have them handy, statements which support that view of
them:[list]
Fear of power invisible, feigned by the mind or imagined from tales publicly allowed, [is] religion;
not allowed, superstition. Thomas Hobbes (1588-1679)
If the ignorance of nature gave birth to gods, the knowledge of nature is calculated to destroy
them. Paul Henri Thiry, Baron d'Holbach (1723-1789)
Men of simple understanding, little inquisitive and little instructed, make good Christians. Michel
Eyquem de Montaigne (1533-1592)
Methinks sometimes I have no more wit than a Christian. William Shakespeare (1564-1616)
As you know, the Inquisition is an admirable and wholly Christian invention to make the pope and the
monks more powerful and turn a whole kingdom into hypocrites. François Marie Arouet aka Voltaire
(1694-1778)
"I count religion but a childish toy, And hold there is no sin but ignorance." Christopher Marlowe
(1564-1593)
Those who wish to seek out the cause of miracles, and to understand the things of nature as
philosophers, and not to stare at them in astonishment like fools, are soon considered heretical and
impious, and proclaimed as such by those whom the mob adores as the interpreters of nature and the
gods. For these men know that once ignorance is put aside that wonderment would be taken away which
is the only means by which their authority is preserved. Baruch Spinoza (1632-1677)
The general root of superstition is that men observe when things hit, and not when they miss and
commit to memory the one, and pass over the other. Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you
doubt, as far as possible, all things. René Descartes (1596-1650)
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. David Hume (1711-1776)
Man has the freedom to shape his own life (Oration on the Dignity of Man) Giovanni Pico della
Mirandola (1463-1494)
[The meaning of life is] "To punish the wicked, to care for the good, to embellish his native land
and to benefit all mankind." Bartolommeo Della Fonte 1446 - 1513
How profitable that fable of Christ hath been to us and our company! Pope Leo X (Pageant of Popes,
John Bale)
Petrarch (1301 - 1375) and Boccaccio (1313 - 1375) are regarded as the principle authors of
humanism. I only have their works in Latin and don't have time to translate or dig up references.
I'd also suggest that Nicolaus Copernicus, Tycho Brahe and Johannes Kepler had their moments. Again,
I only have their works in Latin and German.
But it wasn't just the authors, Frederick III undoubtedly was "not orthodox" and sponsored an entire
generation of poets, musicians and artists. Consider the implications of an Artist paining himself
as "The Christ" - which is exactly what Durer did in 1500.
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/attachments/durer_1500.jpg
The above "Munich panel" was produced as part of the "celebration of the saeculum" staged by Conrad
Celtis and his fellow humanists. Celtis used the 1500 celebrations into a symbol of his own
"Secular" culture's advance and created a narrative secular myth of progress. Dürer's Munich 500
Self Portrait was Dürer's contribution to their recording and interpretation of history, combining
self-presentation with an historical overview of human consciousness.
[Jonathan] With sincere respect H, I do not have the time to do so.
[Hermit] Curiosity and reading is the essence of the scientist. Including the social. I think you
need to give back the badge...
Hermit
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