From: Jake Sapiens (every1hz@earthlink.net)
Date: Thu Sep 25 2003 - 14:59:34 MDT
> [Original Message]
> From: Jonathan Davis <jonathan.davis@lineone.net>
> To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> Date: 09/25/2003 8:37:12 AM
> Subject: RE: Unilateralism (was: RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1)
>
> Dear Jake,
>
> No I don't remember Bush and Rumsfeld repeatedly threatening to "go it
> alone". Pundits speculated the UN would be rendered irrelevant, but the US
> government did not say that.
>
> You claimed that "the current administration has shown a very clear
> preference for unilateral action over diplomacy and consensus. Indeed
> often not just a preference, but the sole "strategy"". I have simply shown
> this to be factually incorrect. In both Afghanistan and Iraq the US acted
> as part of a coalition. In Afghanistan it had several major military
powers.
> In Iraq it has the allies like the UK and Turkey, both massively powerful
> countries in their own right.
[Jake] You got you facts wrong here. Turkey has committed zero troops and
in addition denied the US/UK a northern front in Iraq. Turkey's actions
certainly haven't been helpful.
>
> That three of the five members of the permanent security council were not
in
> favour of the Iraq liberation does not justify your exaggerations. When
> aggressor states like China (Tibet), Russia (Chechnya) and France (Nuclear
> testing) oppose sensible action for the sake of political gain or simple
> obtrusiveness, I applaud when they are ignored.
>
> Bye the way, did you not read Bush's speech in the UN yet? It is well
worth
> reading:
Obviously it has impressed no one in his target audience. I see no
outpouring of foreign help as a result of speech. I don't see any more UN
resolutions on Iraq on the horizon. Do you? You and I must be living in
different universes. I think that about sums it up.
-Jake
>
> "As an original signer of the UN Charter, the United States of America is
> committed to the United Nations. And we show that commitment by working to
> fulfil the UN's stated purposes, and giving meaning to its ideals.
>
> The founding documents of the United Nations and the founding documents of
> America stand in the same tradition.
>
> Both assert that human beings should never be reduced to objects of power
or
> commerce, because their dignity is inherent. Both recognise a moral law
that
> stands above men and nations, which must be defended and enforced by men
and
> nations. And both point the way to peace, the peace that comes when all
are
> free.
>
> We secure that peace with our courage, and we must show that courage
> together."
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3132984.stm
>
>
> Regards
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf
Of
> Jake Sapiens
> Sent: 25 September 2003 18:17
> To: virus
> Subject: RE: Unilateralism (was: RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1)
>
> Hello Jonathan,
>
> Gee, don't you remember Bush and Rumsfeld repeatedly threatening to "go it
> alone", and threatening the UN with irrelevancy if they didn't rubberstamp
> Bush's war? How have you failed to notice these and other "my way or the
> highway" bullying postures that this administration used as its so-called
> diplomacy? Other than the UK which was on our side from the begriming
(and
> hence doesn't really count as a diplomatic victory), this administration
> completely failed to get any other major military power involved in its
Iraq
> expedition. The fact that a short list of relatively minor and weak
> international powers joined the militarily strongest nation in the world
in
> order to provide some international window-dressing does not count as
any.
> These other countries aren't remotely our equals in terms of power, so I
> don't think that this qualifies as bi-lateral in any sense of the word. A
> unilateralist doesn't negotiate with equals. When the unilateralist says
> "my way or the highway", it doesn't suddenly get turned into bilateral
> diplomacy just because some weaker parties knuckle under and say "okay I
> will take your way." The actual military contribution by these other
> countries is negligible compared to US and UK. They are effectively
window
> dressing. This is a primarily US/UK action. I know you and Donald
Rumsfeld
> keep claiming it has some significantly international character, but any
> reasonable observer can recognize the disingenuous nature of this
propaganda
> used to gloss over the diplomatic failures of this administration. Their
> consistent childish bullying unilateralist attitude remains obvious to
> reasonable people not committed to their extreme
> religious-wrong/Christian-crusader ideology.
>
> -Jake
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Jonathan Davis <jonathan.davis@lineone.net>
> > To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> > Date: 09/25/2003 2:14:04 AM
> > Subject: RE: Unilateralism (was: RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1)
> >
> > Hi Jake,
> >
> > You say "I would agree that the USA has had a tradition of choosing
> > diplomacy and consensus, but the current administration has shown a
> > very clear preference for unilateral action over diplomacy and
consensus.
> Indeed
> > often not just a preference, but the sole "strategy""
> >
> > This is simply false. This administration has always acted with a
> coalition
> > of partners and allies including the United Kingdom. Can you cite an
> > examples of this administration acting unilaterally? Also, can you
> > explain why this Cold War concept of bi- and unilateralism is being
> > used where it
> is
> > nearly meaningless in this context?
> >
> > You see unilateralism, I see a coalition of 49 countries. Perhaps it
> > is
> you
> > who needs to have his ideo-memetic health checked as "rather obvious
> public
> > facts" appear to directly contradict your counterclaims.
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On
> > Behalf
> Of
> > Jake Sapiens
> > Sent: 24 September 2003 20:30
> > To: virus
> > Subject: Unilateralism (was: RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1)
> >
> > Okay, I am still in the process of digesting the E-Zine, so I haven't
> > read Hermit's piece yet, (but I will soon), but I can't let Jonathan's
> assertion
> > below just slide by. I would agree that the USA has had a tradition
> > of choosing diplomacy and consensus, but the current administration
> > has
> shown a
> > very clear preference for unilateral action over diplomacy and
consensus.
> > . Indeed other modes of conducting foreign policy seem almost missing
> from
> > this administrations repertoire. (Colin Powell not withstanding since
> > they seem to more or less ignore him making his diplomacy ineffective
> > before he starts). I can't imagine what (other than perhaps an
> > ideological/memetic
> > infection) would lead Jonathan to not notice these rather obvious
> > public facts.
> >
> > -Jake
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: Jonathan Davis <jonathan.davis@lineone.net>
> > > To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> > > Date: 09/15/2003 2:02:23 AM
> > > Subject: RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
> > >
> > > You say the USA holds the community of nations in manifest
> > > contempt, yet
> > I
> > > see no such contempt. I see the USA, despite its overwhelming power,
> > > choosing diplomacy and consensus. The USA has withdrawn from some
> > treaties,
> > > but it was perfectly fair for them to do so. If an agreement
> > > disadvantages you, you are entitled to void the agreement and
> renegotiate.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On
> > > Behalf
> > Of
> > > Blunderov
> > > Sent: 15 September 2003 08:45
> > > To: virus@lucifer.com
> > > Subject: RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Jonathan Davis
> > > > Sent: 14 September 2003 1840
> > > > To: virus@lucifer.com
> > > > Subject: RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
> > > >
> > > > I was spooked by Hermit's Chinese-commit-genocide piece but for me
> > > > it
> > > was
> > > > ruined by its overt anti-Americanism (if that term can be applied
> > > > to
> > > what
> > > > appears *in my opinion* to be Hermit's pathological hatred of
> > > America).
> > >
> > >
> > > [Bl.] Whether Hermit has a hatred of America, and whether, if so,
> > > this hatred is pathological or not, I cannot say. What I can say is
> > > that it is equally possible, based on the evidence before us, that
> > > he is a fervent patriot. It depends on your point of view.
> > >
> > > When the British invaded China in the 18th Century they found maps
> > > in
> > which
> > > China occupied the almost whole of the document; peeping in at the
> > > corners of these maps were tiny representations of what were
> > > characterized as 'Barbarian' nations - Britain, France and the USA.
> > > It was clear that the Chinese world view allocated no importance to
> anything
> > other than China.
> > >
> > > Ironically, if one reads the Hermits list of broken American
> > > promises and treaties, it is difficult to conclude that the American
> > > world-view is any less solipsistic than the Chinese maps of yore.
> > >
> > > It is almost risible that such a self-avowedly 'democratic' nation
> > > should hold the community of nations in such manifest contempt.
Almost.
> > >
> > >
> > > Best Regards
> > > Blunderov
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
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> > >
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> >
> >
> > --- Jake Sapiens
> > --- every1hz@earthlink.net
> > --- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
> >
> >
> > ---
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> >
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>
> --- Jake Sapiens
> --- every1hz@earthlink.net
> --- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
>
>
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--- Jake Sapiens
--- every1hz@earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
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