From: Hermit (virus@hermit.net)
Date: Fri Sep 26 2003 - 07:23:02 MDT
[Jonathan Davis] You, like Kharin, have stooped to defamation over content. Scruton is a first and foremost an philosopher, and a superb one at that. I can testify to this as I have read the book in question.
[Hermit] Nope. Scruton isn't a "superb" philosopher. He is a media figure who plays the role of a philosopher on programs appealing to Fux TV viewers. He is probably most famous for accepting money from Japan Tobacco International to write pro-smoking articles in the various newspapers that murder trees on his behalf. And then getting found out. Said newspapers ended up sacking him for his pains. (Kharin's contribution.)
[Jonathan Davis] Why you inserted the irrelevant comments about race consciousness I do not know. Redefining the out-group is easy when I can force you into the in-group at spear point.
[Hermit] Not when the tip is irrefutably entagled somewhere in your own anatomy.
[Hermit] Having told two people whom you regularly characterize as intelligent, fair, experienced and articulate that they are engaging in defamation - which you should recognise is always stupid - something seems to be out of kilter.
[Hermit] My recommendation was for you to read some Toynbee in order to try to get a better handle on history before you decide that Scruton represents a pinnacle of historical excellence upon which you can base your entire opinion of the field.
[Jonathan Davis] As a scientist, sceptic and atheist perhaps you would be better advised expounding on Toynbee's "use of myths and metaphors as being of comparable value to factual data and his reliance on a view of religion as a
regenerative force" http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=406334
[Hermit] Perhaps you were unaware that Toynbee was an atheist and a skeptic - and probably the first historian to attempt a modern scientific approach to history on a grand scale (i.e. looking at the macro-event level). Perhaps that is why I appreciate him.
[Hermit] Look in a mirror. Observing that myth and metaphor is important and plays a huge role in life and history is no more, and certainly no less, than what the CoV is engaged in. What else is "memetics" other than myth, metaphor and their effects on their carriers.
[Hermit] In any case, I suggest that somebody's perspective is flawed and that cognitive dissonance is almost certainly at work. Particularly when it comes to your repeatedly rejected strange idea that I advocate any Theistic religions. The difference between you and I, it seems, is that I condemn them all equally, rather than reserving a fondness for the Anglicans. This includes recognizing that your (and that of your sources) blanket condemnation of Middle Eastern and Asian culture is rooted in your apparently shallow perspective. Had you been brought up in, e.g. The PRC, your opinion would no doubt be different. Which allows me to condemn your judgements, They are not measured, but are rooted in cultural prejudice.
[Jonathan Davis] Or is your selective quoting of Toynbee just a case of a quoting another set of scriptures for one's own purposes?
[Hermit] The man was prodigiously productive, having written upwards of 100 works, many of them seminal. I recall your complaining of a few paragraphs of summary recently - on the grounds you had no time to read them. If you don't want a flood which will make Dees look restrained, I suggest that you be glad that I am selective.
[Hermit] As for quoting Toynbee*, he serves as a counterpoise to Scruton and Co, reminding you of their "western universalist" position. While your knowledge of Islamic history as portrayed here is so flawed as to render discussion meaningless until you obtain a better background, bigotry and prejudicial interpretations abound, and you seem to have soaked up and in consequence appear to be advocating some percentage of it.
[Jonathan Davis] I find it delightfully ironic that you approving quote Toynbee's reference to Islamic universalism -namely the surrendered are all equal before Allah (hence no need for other classifications like race or nation), yet for Toynbee "the West's universalist pretensions" are disgusting.
[Hermit] Think about what you say - or better, research it. Preferably not in a book written by an ahl al-q'itab with his own problems - and writing out of field. Who defeated the alchemists and Jews of Medieval Europe? Where did they flee? What is the purpose of jizya? Can somebody "conquered" be subjected to "Dhimmitude" and "equal in surrender"? I know the answers. Do you?
[Jonathan Davis] I am alarmed that how you are so forgiving and even admiring of our
deadliest and fastest growing competitor - Islam. Do you really mean to side with this militant religion against our secular, Western model of politics?
[Hermit] You shouldn't be alarmed. You certainly shouldn't imagine that Islam is deadly - except in a rather boring sense. Like any other belief system, its adherents adapt it to fit their situation and justify their actions. When living repressed in a brutal environment, it can be used to justify suicide bombing. Just as Christianity justified revolution in England and the forcing of China to purchase opium from the English - and apartheid lead to the necklacing of teachers by "rational atheistic humanists" and economic crises and belief in racial superiority lead the US to justify nuking Japan. When times are better, the very same beliefs might lead to quiet discussions over tea and cucumber sandwiches with the Imam.
[Hermit] As a second issue, you need to read the news from time to time. Neither of the two global "B"s (i.e. the smirking chimp and his poodle) hide the fact that they were called by a Middle Eastern god to save the world from itself. So much for a secular Western model of politics.
[Jonathan Davis] Your words remind me of something Orwell wrote:
[Jonathan Davis] "why is it that the worst extremes of jingoism and racialism have to be tolerated when they come from an Irishman? Why is a statement like "My country right or wrong" reprehensible if applied to England and worthy of respect if applied to Ireland (or for that matter to India)? For there is no doubt that some such convention exists and that "enlightened" opinion in England can swallow even the most blatant nationalism so long as it is not British nationalism. Poems like "Rule, Britannia!" or Ye Mariners of England" would be taken seriously if one inserted at the right places the name of some foreign country, as one can see by the respect accorded to various French and Russian war poets to-day."
[Hermit] Actually that could be another example of bigoted jingoism (and possibly your cognitive dissonance flaring up again). As a half-Scotsman, I reject the idea that England is synonymous with Great Britain! And if you had comprehended anything I have written on politics, you would be aware that I regard all "nationalistic jingoism" as being equally harmful to humans. Indeed, doubly harmful, in that "nationalism" by itself is a curse, and "jingoism" a disease of the intellect.
[Jonathan Davis]As for you Hermit, oppugnancy is damaging you. Perhaps "surrender" is what you really need?
[Hermit] Despite it having become the norm in American politics, your diagnosis appears as flawed as the idea of the inmates running the asylum. All right thinking people recognise that the world is neither black nor white, but a rather attractive shade of grey. Perhaps it is difficult to recognise when you are running around with beams in your eyes. Maybe an optician could assist you?
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