From: Keith Henson (hkhenson@rogers.com)
Date: Fri Oct 03 2003 - 19:04:06 MDT
At 03:30 PM 03/10/03 -0600, Mermaid wrote:
snip
>[Mermaid]Once again..whatever it may be..I want to know WHAT the church is
>going to do for me. What do I gain from membership to CoV? Can I get a
>simple answer for this?
I don't know if you will consider this a simple answer or not . . . . A
major function of any church/community is social support. Humans are
deeply social primates. We simply don't do well isolated, in fact,
isolation drives some people right over the brink into insanity. (There
are reports about a monkey that is permanently mentally damaged by a
relatively short period of isolation. This is not true of all primates;
orangutans in the wild are a lot less social than our closer relatives.)
Anyway . . . Humans evolved in tribes. In western culture we just don't
have them. Thus many different kinds of groups, everything from amateur
acting to sports leagues to political parties form as substitutes for
tribes. I know a lot of people who are caught up in the Society for
Creative Anachronism or related historical groups.
We are all plugged into some degree of social support, family, people at
work, friends local and ones you know on the net. These substitute tribe
members are the next step away from close family, you can ask and get
certain kinds of support from other members and you are expected to provide
such support to other members who ask. Lacking a shoulder to cry on in
times of personal troubles is a serious life deficiency.
Western culture discarded traditional tribes long ago in favor of larger
political units. With fewer children per families, family has become less
of a source of social support as well. The propensity of people to move
long distances is rough on social support networks as well. People who go
a long distance to college and then take a job far from home lose their
social support network twice in early life and have to rebuild it. If I
remember correctly (it has been many years) that was part of what the
Unabomber gripped about. (Google Unabomber, take first link.)
Tribe and extended family overlap--though tribes are usually
larger. Tribes used to be of a certain linage (usually paternal) and in a
certain location. Because of this and common language/culture, tribe
members had a lot in common.
Those who gravitate to "places" like CoV tend to be people who can't find a
lot of local social support. Typically this is because they just are not
much like the people around them. They are more educated, usually very
intelligent, usually alienated from conventional religions (and sometimes
their families) and out on the bleeding edge in half a dozen
directions. While most of them acknowledge being humans, they are deeply
unsatisfied with the human condition.
A related reason people gravitate to CoV and other net forums is that they
are so obnoxious IRL that they have few other choices. :-)
>[Hermit]Please consider for a moment that nobody has a "right" to be a
>member of a church or other such "community of the willing."
Part of the reason the murder rate in Western culture is so low compared to
life in tribes is that we can expel disruptive people from social
groups. I remember hearing about an impressive case where someone had
deeply disrupted the "peace and love" hippy community in Tucson in the late
60s. The community coped with the problem in the traditional way; i.e.,
she was killed. (It is rare for woman to be that disruptive, but it can
happen.)
snip
[Hermit]So when our community acts to protect itself, its members and good
order, by withdrawing its countenance, facilities or acceptance from a
member, the community is not "punishing" the member, it is simply
disassociating itself from the behaviour, and in extreme cases, the person
that the community perceives as not being in unity with it.
>[Mermaid]I hear. We already has the sheriff doing that job. It is unlikely
>that an unpleasant specimen will emerge again in CoV. Examples have been
>made from previous unpleasantness. Everyone knows the consequences. If
>people insist on bad behaviour, I think its pretty telling and quite suicidal.
>
>[Mermaid]Cant you see? You are telling people why CoV wont want them..why
>they will be rejected...how they should behave..instead of telling them
>how they are unique..how they can be useful and how they can get better
>and make others better....Its like telling a child that you'd spank him if
>he doesnt get good grades..instead of telling the child that you'd reward
>him if he gets good grades. I vote for not spanking and collective
>rewards. If you think spanking will work more than reward, then maybe we
>should have a chat about *that* instead. Anything but how and why you will
>administer the spanking.
>
>[Mermaid]CoV members are not children. We are mature and on most days,
>rational adults. We can see reason. We can weigh the consequences of our
>actions.
Unfortunately enough disruptive types are not nearly so much rational as
_rationalizing_. I have discussed before the really perverse psychological
trap where people feel rewarded by attention for disruptive behavior. This
is a problem in real life, especially with small children, but partly
because of the high multiplier, and partly because of the missing real time
emotional feedback, it is far more of a community-destroying problem on the
net.
>We have vision. We can create a better world. I'd bet most of us dont want
>to conform. Its probably precisely because we didnt want to conform that
>we sought out a place like CoV. Demanding that we conform to any kind of
>'desired and acceptable behaviour' is an insult to our intelligence.
>Regardless of the language...I protest. We know who they are....the silly
>ones..the childish ones..the not so serious ones..the malicious ones...the
>wonderful thing is we are diverse..and we need them all..the mean, the nasty,
My life has been massively disrupted by a cult that *trains* people to be
malicious, mean and nasty. I am *not kidding.* Google TR-L outflow.
"Intelligence Specialist Training Routine - TR L... SPECIALIST TRAINING
ROUTINE - TR L. Purpose: To train the student to give a false statement
with good TR-1. To train the student to outflow false data ...
www.planetkc.com/sloth/sci/TR-L.html"
If you think you need them, I can give you explicit instructions on how to
get them on your case. (You would gain considerable merit by diverting
part of the cult's attention from others.) I can also point you to a
certain news group . . . .
>the kind, the hasty, the wise, the funny....its not our behaviour that
>brought us together..it was our beliefs...
>[Mermaid]What we CANNOT ignore is the fact that we have no common goals.
I don't think this is logical since there is a conceptual overlap in what
people believe and what they have as goals. Perhaps you could provide a
few examples. I can certainly think of counter examples.
>We are united but we dont know why we are together or what we are going to
>do with our combined strengths. I really think we need to talk about that.
>It is a lot more urgent than DiP. If you would use your energy in figuring
>that out and working with people like me(and many others like me) who are
>interested in finding a way to make good of the strength in our current
>numbers instead of investing time and energy in DiP, I am sure a lot of
>people will appreciate it. Think about it.
Volunteer "tribes" like CoV are just that. Too many (and that's a small
number) unpleasant experiences and people pick up and leave. I understand
that there have been a number of times when disruptive people had the
effect of driving out the ones who could and did contribute.
The first goal of any organization is to persist. If it is small it also
needs to grow to a size compatible with its goals. Considering the implied
goals of a transhuman future, a CoV the size of the Catholic Church might
not be large enough. Solving the disruption problem isn't sufficient, but
it is necessary step in the right direction.
I really appreciate your posting on this subject. I need such a goad to
get me to organize these thoughts.
Thanks,
Keith Henson
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