From: Jonathan Davis (jonathan.davis@lineone.net)
Date: Wed May 05 2004 - 17:33:13 MDT
If by Bush apologist you mean people like me, then you are right about one
thing: my opinions have not changed one whit.
The reasons for going to war are as sound as ever, even with the benefit of
20:20 hindsight. Even what I considered one of the lower order good reasons
(of many) - the WMD *threat* - was real and increasingly we see evidence of
what happened to Saddam's arsenal (it went to Syria) and there are
studiously under-reported discoveries of his nuclear and weapons program
almost every day.
Iranian and Syrian backed insurrections are causing a few problems, but the
military response has be nothing short of brilliant. The situation in
troubled but utterly winnable. If people back home have courage,
determination and good will.
I this forum, politically, we get a self-reinforcing cycle of anti-Bush and
anti-War opining that whilst emboldening rabid anti-Semites bigots like Jei
and spurring my esteemed fellows Jake and Kalkor to harsh claims, is mostly
unbalanced and based on bunk.
For quality analysis of what I going on in Iraq, why not try dispassionate
and balanced commentary? Try:
http://belmontclub.blogspot.com/
I also recommend the absolutely brilliant Victor Davis Hanson. Here are two
latest essays:
What the President Might Say
http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200404300833.asp
Myth or Reality?
Will Iraq work? That's up to us.
http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200404230833.asp
His recent essay on the Iraqi torture scandal is magnificent. He concludes:
"If a small number of soldiers has transgressed, then let us punish them
severely, as well as the officers who either ordered or ignored such
reprehensible behaviour. But let us also accept that the reaction to this
incident is indicative of larger moral asymmetries that are the burdens of
the West when it goes to war, a culture that so often equates the
understandable absence of perfection, either moral, political, or military,
with abject failure -- a fact not lost on our enemies.
We have seen terrible things since September 11 -- monotonous public
executions, taped decapitations, videos of brutalized hostages, diplomats
gunned down, aid workers riddled with bullets, children's bodies blown apart
by improvised explosive devices, nuts, bolts and rat poison added to suicide
bombs -- most under either the sponsorship of some autocratic Middle Eastern
governments or of terrorist cabals that could not exist without at least the
tacit support of thousands in the Arab street.
So as we in America address the moral inadequacies of a handful of our
soldiers, let those in the Middle East take heart from our own necessary and
stern democratic inquiries and audits, and thus at last now apply the same
standards of accountability to tens of thousands, far more culpable, of
their own."
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/3955
Just for the record, Kalkor and Jake what do you recommend as the solution
to the Iraq situation? US pullout? Reinstatement of Saddam? Handing over to
Al Sadr?
I suggest you heed the UN representative to Iraq :
"A key question is whether a credible political process is even viable under
such circumstances [Limbic notes this he refers to recent insurrection and
strife]. It is important to note, in this context, that the limited task we
are presently engaged in - the formation of an administration to assume
responsibility as of 30 June - is part of a much broader political process,
and that this political process has to be seen against the background of the
realities that made it necessary: namely, war and occupation and, before
that, a very harsh and brutal regime, and severe, even crippling sanctions,
not to mention two earlier devastating and costly wars.
The political process aims at restoring Iraqi sovereignty and independence,
preserving the country's unity and territorial integrity, and making the
Iraqi people truly the masters of their own destiny, with the political
system of their choice and control over their own natural resources.
So: Is it possible for the process to proceed under such circumstances? Will
it be viable? Will it be credible? I put it to you and the Council, Mr.
President, that *there is in fact no alternative but to find a way of making
the process viable and credible*. Between security on the one hand, and the
end of occupation, the restoration of sovereignty and independence and the
advent of a legitimate Iraqi government and political regime on the other,
there is a dialectical link which is obvious. Security is essential for the
process to be completed. A viable political process is no panacea. It is a
powerful contributing factor to security; hence, the importance for a
credible Iraqi Government to be in place and lead the way in the completion
of the next phase of the political process. In the end, the solution to
Iraq's problems will have to come from the Iraqis themselves. The sooner a
credible Iraqi government is in place to lead the way, the better,
especially because the absence of such a sovereign government is part of the
problem in the first place."
http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocusnewsiraq1.asp?NewsID=730&sID=19
Let's stop gloating at every setback and roaring "I told you so" so very
prematurely about circumstances long anticipated and in the scheme of things
minor setbacks agitated by countries who are trying to divert attention from
the WMD programs.
Iraq has to work. If it fails it will not be anyone's fault by the tribal
mafia/Mujahedin/Islamist alliance, the hostile western and Arab press and
those of you who continue to take out your anger at being impotent to stop
the war by supporting the ruining of the peace.
Regards
Limbic
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Blunderov
Sent: 05 May 2004 21:32
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: RE: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
Jake Sapiens
Sent: 05 May 2004 10:58 PM
It's generally much more easy and comfortable to attack a source that says
"I told you so", rather than admit that you were completely or almost
completely wrong. Habitual Bush apologists seem to have no lack of
irrational denial to call upon in these situations. I wouldn't expect even
a bare modicum of intellectual honesty from them from here on out now that
almost all of their rationalizations have gone up in delusional smoke.
It's a pretty common human response, however, so I wouldn't automatically
write them all off as anything less than common without knowing more.
Disillusion is an ugly process that often has no concern for honesty or
reality unless and until it has run its course.
[Blunderov] The whole Iraq scenario is a hideous fiasco and now the whole
world appears to be seething with bombs in public places. (Hope the Rhino is
safe.)
At least Jubagulord made it out OK.
'Cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of war'. Havoc it certainly is and so it
looks to remain.
Gloomily
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