RE: virus: Re:Some of Juuko Isohaari's favorite writers and posts

From: Jonathan Davis (jonathan.davis@lineone.net)
Date: Fri May 07 2004 - 12:00:19 MDT

  • Next message: Jei: "RE: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq"

    Hi Rhino,

    I am very well acquainted with Slaughterhouse 5 and the story of Dresden.
    That and the brutal treatment that was meted out to German civilians at the
    end of the war has been an occasional theme on my blog.

    http://www.limbicnutrition.com/blog/archives/020794.html
    http://www.limbicnutrition.com/blog/archives/018877.html

    Whilst I think the firebombings of Hamburg and Dresden were mistakes - even
    though recent research challenges the claim that they were innocent cities
    and of no value militarily
    (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0747570787/) - think it is
    absurd to claim they damaged Europe economically in the long term. US trade,
    rescue packages and aid dwarfed the damage wrought by bombers as did 50
    years of expensive defence of the continent.

    Europe owes a massive debt of gratitude to the US as well as thanks for the
    prosperity and security brought to the place after the war and to this day.

    I mean, how well did Finland & other countries fare in the Soviet bloc as
    opposed to those in the US bloc even though they were untouched by Allied
    area bombing (Poland/Yugoslavia/Hungary/Albania/Czechoslovakia)?

    Jei's revisionism is bunk.

    Kind regards

    JD
     

    -----Original Message-----
    From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
    rhinoceros
    Sent: 07 May 2004 17:24
    To: virus@lucifer.com
    Subject: virus: Re:Some of Juuko Isohaari's favorite writers and posts

    [Jei]
     "Maybe I think we would be better off if America hadn't bombed the shit out
    of Germany and Europe? Certainly the economy would have been doing much
    better, now that I think about it. Millions of people would still be alive
    and we wouldn't have had to pay for all the shit Russians wanted. Yeah, WWII
    was most likely a disfavor that America did to Europe, from my personal
    economical point of view."

    [Jonathan Davis]
    Jake, Rhino - are you sure you want to keep accusing me of delusion?

    [rhinoceros]
    So far, I have neglected to do so in so many words Jonathan. Dunno about
    Jake ;)

    What Jei said was true, although I would not let the European leaders off
    the hook so easily. The most striking example was the wanton massacre in the
    German city of Dresden, just to pick one of the less controversial cases.
    Have you read Kurt Vonnegut's "Slaughterhouse-Five"?

    The destruction of Dresden
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

    Dresden was widely considered a city of little war-related industrial or
    strategic importance, though, after the fact, in his memoirs Winston
    Churchill described it as a "centre of communications of Germany's Eastern
    Front." Dresden itself was most noted as a cultural centre, with noted
    architecture in the Zwinger Palace, the Dresden State Opera House and its
    historic cathedral (the Frauenkirche) and other churches. It was also called
    "Elbflorenz", i.e. Florence of the Elbe, due to its stunning beauty.

    <snip>

    3,907 tons of bombs were dropped. Out of 28,410 houses in the inner city of
    Dresden, 24,866 were destroyed. An area of 15 square kilometers was totally
    destroyed, among that: 14,000 homes, 72 schools, 22 hospitals, 19 churches,
    5 theaters, 50 bank and insurance companies, 31 department stores, 31 large
    hotels, and 62 administration buildings.

    <snip>

    The precise number of dead is difficult to ascertain and is not known.
    Estimates vary from 35,000 to more than 135,000 dead. Such estimates are
    made very difficult by the fact that the city was crowded at that time by
    many unregistered refugees and wounded soldiers. The foreign forced
    labourers may represent a large number of dead, since they were usually
    employed in the squads to fight fire storms. (In comparison, some 100,000
    died in the bombing of Hiroshima, about 50,000 in the bombing of Nagasaki
    and 100,000 in the bombing of Tokyo and 200,000 were killed in Warsaw during
    the Warsaw uprising 1944.) <snip>

    Or the more cynical British account:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/area_bombing_05.shtml

    <snip>
    This directive led to the raid on Dresden and marked the erosion of one last
    moral restriction in the bombing war: the term 'evacuation from the east'
    did not refer to retreating troops but to the civilian refugees fleeing from
    the advancing Russians.

    Although these refugees clearly did not contribute to the German war effort,
    they were considered legitimate targets simply because the chaos caused by
    attacks on them might obstruct German troop reinforcements to the Eastern
    Front.
    <snip>

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