From: Steele, Kirk A (SteeleKA@nafm.misawa.af.mil)
Date: Thu Jan 10 2002 - 18:27:57 MST
[kirk] again - I spit on the grave of Carl Gustav Jung. He asserts a primacy
of belief and symbology in analysis. Although symbology is a priori to
cognitive transactions, it is not predicate to the meta analysis. On the
contrary, symbology is but a perspective. Mandala, archetypes, and
collective unconscious are all attempts at asserting an epistomological
untestability into a formal system that has a clearly evolved sytematic
structure stated in mathematics and the scientific method. I once stated
that psychology was not a technical science, but merely and interpretive
art. The reason for this is quite clear. My first experiences in (self)
study of psychology were Jungian. Once exposed to the observational
scientific methodology of psychology/psychiatry I quickly put away such
childish things. Very quickly, and embarrisingly tenedered my apologies for
ever having voiced such fluffy-bunniedness.
-----Original Message-----
From: L' Ermit [mailto:lhermit@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 6:49 PM
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: virus: Dawkins in the Observer Ping Blunderov/Joe/Kirk
[Blunderov] If I may be so bold as to direct a question mainly in the
Hermit's direction"? What does the CoV think of Carl Gustav Jung?
[Hermit] I don't know what the CoV thinks of him, Joe Dees or Kirk Steele
are probably far better placed to respond to the question than I. I do know
that a number of neurologists/psychiatrists I know and respect sneer at him,
but have not had the opportunity to dig into his works myself.
[Blunderov] If I understand (which is lamentably probably not the case) him
at all he postulates that the exterior manifestations of religious behaviors
are a sort of projection of the inner structure of the psyche which is
composed of archetypes.These archetypes are given their shape, so to speak,
and reinforced by symbolic and mythical cultural elements.
[Hermit] You seem to know more about him than I do. But I would suggest that
I am not aware of any religion that does not reflect its socioeconomic and
geographic environment*, so I would score any such claim as dubious until I
heard more.
[Hermit] *It may be helpful when considering the above to know that I do not
consider any "religion" as a unitary or constant body. Any religion, such as
"Christianity," is both regionally and temporally divided and all religions
reinvent themselves on a fairly constant basis, maintaining only the name
(and sometimes not even that), sometimes the writings or sayings, and always
the divisive UTISM effect correctly highlighted by Dawkins as the major
factor retarding the development of civilization.
[Blunderov] (It seems to me to be a bit like a man who, looking into a
telescope and seeing only the reflection of his own eyeball, feels justified
in claiming that we are being obseved from outer space.)
[Hermit] Very nice mental imagery which could apply to a lot of situations.
[Blunderov] Perhaps this could be part of the reason for the "nostalgia for
religion"? That the symbolism of religions tends to resonate with our
psychic structures and thus has a sort of emotional pull on people.
[Hermit] I haven't yet seen a "psychic structure" so this is again one of
those areas where you may consider me a skeptic. I also never yet met a
person who didn't learn their religious behaviors from others - and so give
no truck to the concept that it is "internally-sourced". For myself, I see
the alleged "pull of religion" as being a form of mass-hysteria (as can be
observed in other herd and troop oriented species, serving to pull the herd
or troop together and preventing the dilution of the gene-line), carefully
nurtured by governments and churches as a primary means of maintaining their
alpha positions at the top of the food-chain.
[Hermit] As a corollary and generalization of your delightful description,
try "Man, the self-deluding animal" for size.
Regards
Hermit
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