From: Walpurgis (walpurg@myrealbox.com)
Date: Tue Jul 30 2002 - 18:09:15 MDT
[Mermaid] You just dont want a curious 14
year old playing a game without knowing the rules.
What rules? Whose rules?
[Mermaid] You especially dont want
unsavoury characters manipulating their curiosity.
Or their genitals.
[Nurgle] I'm with Herm on this, good sex. ed. is the best way.
Dare to consider more than sex ed. An "ars erotica" is lacking in our culture.
Teaching people of all ages how to create pleasure in themselves and in
others seems to be rare.
As a culture "we" are rationally concerned/wary/fearful of children having
sex - intercourse with others. If we taught children that (how?) they could
pleasure themselves- or at the very least let them know that masturbation
(something they do anyway) was not wrong/naughty/dirtydirtyboy! then there
would be a positive sexual/pleasurable outlet that would stimulate
imagination and free children from negative ideas regarding pleasure,
genitals & onanism. This would also redirect sexual emphasis from
penetration.
Of course it wouldn't fulfil other need (anothers body, interacting/relating
to/pleasuring another).
Why can't children's masturbation something that is taught about or at least
looked upon with a beneign (or even indifferent!) eye? Something considered
normal? Healthy? Fun!?
Are there health or biological reasons why you must intrude on and stop
children from masturbating? Do they go blind? Does it make you vote
conservative? Be anti-social?
Or perhaps its the pleasure that is seen as wrong?
Relatedly see:
http://www.upress.umn.edu/HarmfultoMinors.html
[Mermaid]13-18 = teen. 8-12 = pre-teen. younger than 8=child. IMO: I would
definitely put the pre-teen category as work-in-progress as far as sexual
maturity goes. 13-15 are definitely ready for sex,
Generalisations. Character, not age, is the measure, young or old.
[Mermaid] but should refrain from
sexual activity.
Do you mean just penetration (most people do when they say "sex")? Or
everyting? Like touching or looking at each other? (playing doctor?)
Masturbating? Fantasising? Wondering?
[Mermaid] Anyone who understands the need for
safe sex and is familiar with safe sex procedures is ready for sex.
Right. So where does age come into this? Age is just a rule of thumb and says
nothing about individual character/understanding
[Mermaid] All
these are sadly lacking amongst most of our children.
So it seems. And the adults that teach them.
[Mermaid] The ones who loudly
cry out for the sexual freedom of children do not take the same interest in
the welfare of these youngsters.
A lot like anti-abortionists do calling for the life of foeti then letting the
result live in poverty.
[Mermaid] Being the cynic that I am, I see it all as
the wolf being too concerned about the sheep.
Indeed. The wolf often wears a dog-collar.
[Nurgle]You know what they say about Catholic Girls....
And Catholic priests. (sorry, poor taste but I'm high).
[Mermaid]Isnt 16 the legal age for street walkers in the UK?(Lets not even
consider age of consent)
If by street-walker you mean prostitute, then I believe prostitution is illegal in
the UK.
[Nurgle]I have no idea where to find these stats, or what they are, but I'd
expect to find that countries which expose people to sexual education at
younger ages will have lower rates of STD infections, while conservative
states will have much higher STD rates, as well as higher teen pregnancy
rates. Of course, this hypothesis doesn't include states that have limited
access to contraceptives (both barrier and oral).
Or abortion. Its frightening to have sex when you know you'll get no help or
sympathy if your contraception fails and conception occurs.
[Mermaid]I can look, but that will have to wait. As far as I saw from the
one quick search(www.populationaction.org), Netherlands is doing very well
wrt sex education. HIV infection, teen pregnancy and incidence of STDs are
very low. The Dutch are not shy about sex. Americans lag far far behind the
Dutch because of the lack of proper sex education.
[Mermaid] From my point of view, given that
the mess it is, abstinence actually makes sense in the United States.
"However, children are still having sex before they are legally allowed, and
their ignorance of contraception, or their instilled belief that such methods
are useless, have resulted in a teenage pregnancy rate and HIV infection rate
much higher than countries like the Netherlands, where sex ed. starts at a
young age and involves teaching children about a wide variety of
contraceptive and abortive methods, as well as making these things easily
available. In Europe, where teenagers have as much sex as their US
counterparts, pregnancy rates are a fourth as high than the US rates of 4.96
births per thousand girls. In the Netherlands, teenage pregnancy is virtually
absent. Levines study makes it very clear that abstinence education is
teaching children nothing about sex. Worse though, this education is lethal,
leaving children ignorant about a practice they are likely to engage in and
open to pregnancy, disease and exploitation. George Bush's recent efforts to
http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,710335,00.html enforce
abstinence education outside of the US instead of comprehensive sex ed.
illustrate how urgent a debate around this issue is."
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=2582
4
[Mermaid]There is absolutely no point to fighting for teenager's sexual
needs without educating them first.
And educating adults too.
[Mermaid] Boy! am I glad that I am an old fart..{PRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT="}
Yeah, my girlfriend says the 70s sex revolution in the US when she was a girl
was great, but I wasn't born then - shit.
[Mermaid]
<snip>
"There is a misconception that sexual and reproductive health education will
encourage sexual behavior and lead to higher rates of abortion, unintended
pregnancy and STIs among youth," says Ms. Coen. "The Dutch experience
proves that talking openly about sexuality
Also about nudity too.
"Concepts of morality and tradition and the taboos associated with sexuality
prevent the kind of healthy exchange of information and open
communication that young people desperately need to educate themselves,"
says Dr. Greene. "It is unfortunate that some in the international community
are bound by the same taboos, as it is young people who pay the price."
What's the source for this please? It looks interesting.
Walpurgis
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http://www.noumenal.net/exiles
Take the following two scenes enacted in a shopping mall, say, or on the street or in the park: in the first
an adult is striking a screaming child repeatedly on the buttocks; in the second an adult is sitting with a
child on a bench and they are hugging. Which scene is more common? Which makes us uneasy? Which
do we judge to be normal? Which is more likely to run afoul of the law? A society, I believe, which
honors hitting and suspects hugging is immoral.
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~under006/Library/Antisexuality.html
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