From: Walpurgis (walpurg@myrealbox.com)
Date: Tue Jul 30 2002 - 18:47:54 MDT
[Mermaid] You just dont want a curious 14
year old playing a game without knowing the rules.
What rules? Whose rules?
[Mermaid] You especially dont want
unsavoury characters manipulating their curiosity.
Or their genitals.
[Nurgle] I'm with Herm on this, good sex. ed. is the best way.
Dare to consider more than sex ed. An "ars erotica" is lacking in our
culture. Teaching people of all ages how to create pleasure in
themselves and in others seems to be rare. As a culture "we" are
rationally concerned/wary/fearful of children having sex - intercourse
with others.
If we taught children that (how?) they could pleasure
themselves- or at the very least let them know that masturbation
(something they do anyway) was not wrong/naughty/dirtydirtyboy! then
there would be a positive sexual/pleasurable outlet that would
stimulate imagination and free children from negative ideas regarding
pleasure, genitals & onanism. This would also redirect sexual emphasis
from penetration.
Of course it wouldn't fulfil other need (anothers
body, interacting/relating to/pleasuring another).
Why can't
children's masturbation something that is taught about or at least
looked upon with a beneign (or even indifferent!) eye? Something
considered normal? Healthy? Fun!? Are there health or biological
reasons why you must intrude on and stop children from masturbating?
Do they go blind? Does it make you vote conservative? Be anti-social?
Or perhaps its the pleasure that is seen as wrong?
Relatedly see:
http://www.upress.umn.edu/HarmfultoMinors.html
[Mermaid]13-18 = teen.
8-12 = pre-teen. younger than 8=child. IMO: I would definitely put the
pre-teen category as work-in-progress as far as sexual maturity goes.
13-15 are definitely ready for sex,
Generalisations. Character, not age, is the measure, young or old.
Mermaid] but should refrain from
sexual activity.
Do you mean just penetration (most people do when
they say "sex")? Or everyting? Like touching or looking at each other?
(playing doctor?) Masturbating? Fantasising? Wondering?
[Mermaid]
Anyone who understands the need for safe sex and is familiar with safe
sex procedures is ready for sex.
Right. So where does age come into this? Age is just a rule of thumb and says
nothing about individual character/understanding
[Mermaid] All these are sadly lacking amongst
most of our children.
So it seems. And the adults that teach them.
[Mermaid] The ones who loudly cry out for the sexual freedom of
children do not take the same interest in the welfare of these
youngsters.
A lot like anti-abortionists do calling for the life of
foeti then letting the result live in poverty.
[Mermaid] Being the
cynic that I am, I see it all as the wolf being too concerned about
the sheep.
Indeed. The wolf often wears a dog-collar.
[Nurgle]You know what they say about Catholic Girls....
And Catholic priests. (sorry, poor taste but I'm high).
[Mermaid]Isnt 16 the legal age for street walkers in the UK?(Lets not
even consider age of consent)
If by street-walker you mean prostitute, then I believe prostitution is illegal in the
UK.
[Nurgle]I have no idea where to find these stats, or what they are,
but I'd expect to find that countries which expose people to sexual
education at younger ages will have lower rates of STD infections,
while conservative states will have much higher STD rates, as well as
higher teen pregnancy rates. Of course, this hypothesis doesn't
include states that have limited access to contraceptives (both
barrier and oral).
Or abortion. Its frightening to have sex when you
know you'll get no help or sympathy if your contraception fails and
conception occurs.
[Mermaid]I can look, but that will have to wait. As far as I saw from
the one quick search(www.populationaction.org), Netherlands is doing
very well wrt sex education. HIV infection, teen pregnancy and
incidence of STDs are very low. The Dutch are not shy about sex.
Americans lag far far behind the Dutch because of the lack of proper
sex education.
[Mermaid] From my point of view, given that the mess it
is, abstinence actually makes sense in the United States.
"However, children are still having sex before they are legally allowed, and
their ignorance of contraception, or their instilled belief that such
methods are useless, have resulted in a teenage pregnancy rate and HIV
infection rate much higher than countries like the Netherlands, where
sex ed. starts at a young age and involves teaching children about a
wide variety of contraceptive and abortive methods, as well as making
these things easily available. In Europe, where teenagers have as much
sex as their US counterparts, pregnancy rates are a fourth as high
than the US rates of 4.96 births per thousand girls. In the
Netherlands, teenage pregnancy is virtually absent. Levines study
makes it very clear that abstinence education is teaching children
nothing about sex. Worse though, this education is lethal, leaving
children ignorant about a practice they are likely to engage in and
open to pregnancy, disease and exploitation. George Bush's recent
efforts to
http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,710335,00.html
enforce abstinence education outside of the US instead of
comprehensive sex ed. illustrate how urgent a debate around this issue
is."
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid
=2582 4
[Mermaid]There is absolutely no point to fighting for teenager's
sexual needs without educating them first. And educating adults too.
[Mermaid] Boy! am I glad that I am an old fart..
Yeah, my girlfriend says the 70s sex revolution in the US when she was a girl was
great, but I wasn't born then - shit.
[Mermaid]
<snip>
"There is a misconception that sexual and reproductive health
education will encourage sexual behavior and lead to higher rates of
abortion, unintended pregnancy and STIs among youth," says Ms. Coen.
"The Dutch experience proves that talking openly about sexuality Also
about nudity too.
"Concepts of morality and tradition and the taboos associated with
sexuality
prevent the kind of healthy exchange of information and open
communication that young people desperately need to educate
themselves," says Dr. Greene. "It is unfortunate that some in the
international community are bound by the same taboos, as it is young
people who pay the price."
What's the source for this please? It looks interesting.
Walpurgis
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.noumenal.net/exiles
Take the following two scenes enacted in a shopping mall, say, or on the street or in the park: in the first
an adult is striking a screaming child repeatedly on the buttocks; in the second an adult is sitting with a
child on a bench and they are hugging. Which scene is more common? Which makes us uneasy? Which
do we judge to be normal? Which is more likely to run afoul of the law? A society, I believe, which
honors hitting and suspects hugging is immoral.
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~under006/Library/Antisexuality.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Wed Sep 25 2002 - 13:28:50 MDT