From: joedees@bellsouth.net
Date: Wed Aug 07 2002 - 22:02:21 MDT
On 7 Aug 2002 at 21:16, Hermit wrote:
>
> [Joe Dees 1] Of course, you know that is not what I said. I said that
> the Palestinians, as a group, have done so, and to the tune of half
> their total intifadeh deaths. This does not mean that every crone and
> infant has hung, shot or stoned a collaborator; just that many
> Palestinians have, and the practice is widely accepted within the
> Palestinian community.
>
> [Hermit 2] No Joe. This is what you said, attempting to defend
> genocide.But the Palestinians kill suspected collaborators all the
> time.
>
> [Hermit 2] Having shown your previous assertion fallacious, please
> provide whatever evidence you think you have, showing that
> collaboraters are killed due to a group decision. Bear in mind that
> until they are replaced by more fanatical groups, that the
> Palestinians are represented by the PLA and Mr Arafat - elected by a
> 60% plebiscite - making him a lot more legitimate than Mr Bush will
> ever be. Further please provide evidence that this accounts for "half
> their total intifadeh deaths" or is that another of your "opinions"?
>
> [Joe Dees 3] I never attempted to defend, nor would I ever attempt to
> defend, genocide.
>
> [Hermit 4] In my opinion, when you equate genocide with murder, and
> argue that the victims of genocide are not "innocent", then you are
> attempting to defending genocide. If this was not what you meant to
> do, why did you respond by pointing to the victims and pointing out
> their many deficiencies?
>
I was explicitly refuting the unstated but nevertheless, I believe, real
assumption some people might have made that all the Palestinian intifadeh
deaths could be laid at the feet of Israelis, when about half of them are the
work of other Palestinians.
>
> [Joe Dees 3] You cannot successfully challenge what I do in fact say,
>
> [Hermit 4] I can, do, and have. You originally said, "But the
> Palestinians kill suspected collaborators all the time." After being
> challenged and much to and froing, you claimed, "Of course, you know
> that is not what I said. I said that the Palestinians, as a group,
> have done so, and to the tune of half their total intifadeh deaths." I
> observed that this is different and that you had not supported your
> original assertion.
>
Are you now saying that Palestinians do not comprise a group labeled
'Palestinians"? How strange. Otherwise, the two statements, while using
some differing words, are practically identical, the only difference being the
explicitation, in the second, of what was assumed in the first. But I should
not assume that you will understand anything not clearly spelled out for you,
I suppose.
>
> [Joe Dees 3] so you cynically attempt to twist and misquote me so that
> you can skewer a straw man that you, not I, built. Quite simply, I am
> here to tell you that you can't get away with that with me.
>
> [Hermit 4] How are you being "misquoted" or having your words
> "twisted?"
>
By your smearical claim that my statement entailed that I was attempting to
defend or justify a genocide, when I would never do such a thing.
>
> [Hermit 2] Having shown your previous assertion fallacious, please
> provide whatever evidence you think you have, showing that
> collaboraters are killed due to a group decision. Bear in mind that
> until they are replaced by more fanatical groups, that the
> Palestinians are represented by the PLA and Mr Arafat - elected by a
> 60% plebiscite - making him a lot more legitimate than Mr Bush will
> ever be. Further please provide evidence that this accounts for "half
> their total intifadeh deaths" or is that another of your "opinions"?
>
> [Joe Dees 3] That is the figure generally given by disintersted
> observers all over Google.
>
> [Hermit 4] Ad populam?
>
More like an appeal to authority, something all of us here use all the time,
yourself included.
>
> [Hermit 4] What was your search term? How did you determine that these
> "observers" actually saw what was happening? How did you determine
> that these "observers" actually are "disintersted"?
>
How are ypou sure that there is actually a Ka'aba in Mecca? Have you seen
it? Are the reports of it that you have perused been submitted by people you
have personally vetted as disinterested observers? But then how could they
have seen the Ka'aba, when only believers in Islam, whom are definitely not
disinterested, are allowed inside the Great Mosque?
>
> [Hermit 4] How do you explain the fact that your assertion is at odds
> with figures released by:[*]http://electronicintifada.net/new.html
> [*]http://www.palestinercs.org/[*]http://www.israel.org/mfa/go.asp?MFA
> H0ia50[*]http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/intifada_fact_sheet
> _cover.htmWhich appear to provide the most complete and detailed
> reporting?
>
I would figure that you would proffer such advocacy sites as the Palestine
Monitor as 'disinterested."
>
> [Joe Dees 3] The PLA has indeed tried suspected collaborators and
> sentenced them to death and swiftly carried out the sentences; the
> various terror groups, such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad, tend to skip
> the trial and get right down to the execution.
>
> [Hermit 4] What were the charges? What laws were applied? Were they
> executed just for being collaboraters? If so, how is this different
> from e.g. the execution of vichy French who collaborated with the
> German army of occupation after WWII?
>
I made no judgments concerning the execution of accused Palestinian
collaborators by other Palestinians; I just noted that the practice is routine
and widespread, and comprises a large percentage of the total Palestinian
deaths, a fact that the Palestinian leaders themselves would prefer not to
talk about with the world.
>
> [Joe Dees 3] There are many 'groups' there rather than one, and
> 'groups within groups', just as there are circuits within districts in
> a court system, and various and sundry of these groups have decided,
> apparently around 600 times, to kill suspected collaborators.
>
> [Hermit 4] How is this different from anywhere else? Do all these
> groups represent all the Palestinians? Does
> http://www.christiangallery.com represent you? You are both in the US?
> If not, how does this (further, unfounded) assertion support your
> position?
>
Of course not every Palestinian supports the execution of Palestinian
collaborators, but most of them do; in contrast, I'll bet that few Americans
support the targeting of abortion doctors for murder. And nowhere near 600
of them have been in fact killed - in fact, less than ten.
> ----
> This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
> Virus BBS.
> <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;thread
> id=25976>
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