From: Hermit (hidden@lucifer.com)
Date: Wed Aug 07 2002 - 23:19:58 MDT
[Joe Dees 5] I was explicitly refuting the unstated but nevertheless, I believe, real assumption some people might have made that all the Palestinian intifadeh deaths could be laid at the feet of Israelis, when about half of them are the work of other Palestinians.
[Hermit 6] This assertion of yours is still unfounded. No matter how many times you repeat it.
[Joe Dees 5] Are you now saying that Palestinians do not comprise a group labeled 'Palestinians"? How strange. Otherwise, the two statements, while using some differing words, are practically identical, the only difference being the explicitation, in the second, of what was assumed in the first. But I should not assume that you will understand anything not clearly spelled out for you, I suppose.
[Hermit 6] First I showed that your first statement was invalid. Then I showed that it was not congruent with the second, no matter how many times you claim it is. Next I challenged you to support the assertions made in the second formulation. Multiple requests have resulted in no response. Am I to understand that you cannot do so? That you are again proffering "opinion" disguised as "fact"?
[Joe Dees 5] By your smearical claim that my statement entailed that I was attempting to defend or justify a genocide, when I would never do such a thing.
[Hermit 6] Yet I did justify my reasoning for saying this and you have not refuted it, nor can you.> [Hermit 4] In my opinion, when you equate genocide with murder, and argue that the victims of genocide are not "innocent", then you are attempting to defending genocide. If this was not what you meant to do, why did you respond by pointing to the victims and pointing out their many deficiencies?
[Joe Dees 3] That is the figure generally given by disintersted observers all over Google.
[Hermit 4] Ad populam?
[Joe Dees 5] More like an appeal to authority, something all of us here use all the time, yourself included.
[Hermit 6] What a fib. I never consider the mass to be an authoritive source for anything. Numbers are no substitute for quality.
[Joe Dees 5] How are ypou sure that there is actually a Ka'aba in Mecca? Have you seen it? Are the reports of it that you have perused been submitted by people you have personally vetted as disinterested observers? But then how could they have seen the Ka'aba, when only believers in Islam, whom are definitely not disinterested, are allowed inside the Great Mosque?
[Hermit 6] Yet non-muslims have visited it and photographs have been taken of it. I also know people who have visited it. So the evidence is pretty irrefutable. Unlike that for the opinions you have been deluging us with.
[Hermit 4] How do you explain the fact that your assertion is at odds with figures released by:
http://electronicintifada.net/new.html
http://www.palestinercs.org/
http://www.israel.org/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ia50
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/intifada_fact_sheet_cover.htm
Which appear to provide the most complete and detailed reporting?
[Joe Dees 5] I would figure that you would proffer such advocacy sites as the Palestine Monitor as 'disinterested."
[Hermit 6] There you go again. Seeing what was not said. Please point to where I claimed that I was presenting information from "disinterested" sources. That is your strawman. If somebody is sufficiently interested to collate and post information, they are hardly likely to be "disinterested." So rather I check multiple sources, cited from varying viewpoints, and attempt to get back to root figures. Over time, I discover which ones are likely to present well supported information. So yes, I check both the Israeli government site as well as palestinemonitor.org. On the whole, in my opinion, the Palestine Monitor is about as reliable a source as the Israeli government.
[Hermit 6] Now, I notice you have still not supported your assertion.
[Hermit 4] What were the charges? What laws were applied? Were they executed just for being collaboraters? If so, how is this different from e.g. the execution of vichy French who collaborated with the German army of occupation after WWII?
[Joe Dees 5] I made no judgments concerning the execution of accused Palestinian collaborators by other Palestinians; I just noted that the practice is routine and widespread, and comprises a large percentage of the total Palestinian deaths, a fact that the Palestinian leaders themselves would prefer not to talk about with the world.
[Hermit 6] I suggest that you did no research at all, but simply announced this opinion because it supported your prejudii. Whatever the reasons for executions, formal and informal, they do not appear to be included in the figures I have located. And I find it hard to believe that the Israeli government would not be creating charts showing this if the charge were true - or even arguable.
[Joe Dees 3] There are many 'groups' there rather than one, and 'groups within groups', just as there are circuits within districts in a court system, and various and sundry of these groups have decided, apparently around 600 times, to kill suspected collaborators.
[Hermit 4] How is this different from anywhere else? Do all these
groups represent all the Palestinians? Does http://www.christiangallery.com represent you? You are both in the US? If not, how does this (further, unfounded) assertion support your position?
[Joe Dees 3] Of course not every Palestinian supports the execution of Palestinian collaborators, but most of them do; in contrast, I'll bet that few Americans support the targeting of abortion doctors for murder. And nowhere near 600 of them have been in fact killed - in fact, less than ten.
[Hermit 6] You didn't answer the question (as seems usual these days). What did you include the above statement. Given that it was unfounded and seemingly unsupportable except by more opinion, how did you think that it would assist your precarious position? Were you mistakenly thinking that if you wrote more that it would appear more weighty? Please rethink. As noted above, mass is no substitute for quality.
---- This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of Virus BBS. <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=25976>
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