From: joedees@bellsouth.net
Date: Thu Aug 08 2002 - 00:21:31 MDT
On 7 Aug 2002 at 23:19, Hermit wrote:
>
> [Joe Dees 5] I was explicitly refuting the unstated but nevertheless,
> I believe, real assumption some people might have made that all the
> Palestinian intifadeh deaths could be laid at the feet of Israelis,
> when about half of them are the work of other Palestinians.
>
> [Hermit 6] This assertion of yours is still unfounded. No matter how
> many times you repeat it.
>
And exactly how many Palestinian collaborators do YOU think have
been killed by Palestinians, ayy?
>
> [Joe Dees 5] Are you now saying that Palestinians do not comprise a
> group labeled 'Palestinians"? How strange. Otherwise, the two
> statements, while using some differing words, are practically
> identical, the only difference being the explicitation, in the second,
> of what was assumed in the first. But I should not assume that you
> will understand anything not clearly spelled out for you, I suppose.
>
> [Hermit 6] First I showed that your first statement was invalid. Then
> I showed that it was not congruent with the second, no matter how many
> times you claim it is. Next I challenged you to support the
> assertions made in the second formulation. Multiple requests have
> resulted in no response. Am I to understand that you cannot do so?
> That you are again proffering "opinion" disguised as "fact"?
>
I have in fact, done exactly that (shown how the first statement was
equivalent to the second, once a common but unstated assumption was
clearly enunciated. Your willful inability to perceive same is your
problem not mine.
>
> [Joe Dees 5] By your smearical claim that my statement entailed that I
> was attempting to defend or justify a genocide, when I would never do
> such a thing.
>
> [Hermit 6] Yet I did justify my reasoning for saying this and you have
> not refuted it, nor can you.>
>
Wrong-o, slanderpuss; I precisely did just that.
>
> [Hermit 4] In my opinion, when you
> equate genocide with murder, and argue that the victims of genocide
> are not "innocent", then you are attempting to defending genocide. If
> this was not what you meant to do, why did you respond by pointing to
> the victims and pointing out their many deficiencies?
>
I amswered this, and you cut my answer; just like you. It was to show
that all the dead Palestinians were not, as it seems has been assumed
here, as a result of Israeli actions, but that a large percentage were as
a result of Palestinians killing those other Palestinians whom they
believed to be Israeli collaborators. Since you do not like this simple,
single and irrefutable fact, you choose to attempt to muddy waters and
divert attention by making hysterical and untrue claims that I was in
some manner, way, shape or form condoning, supporting or defending
genocide, a patent lie.
>
> [Joe Dees 3] That is the figure generally given by disintersted
> observers all over Google.
>
> [Hermit 4] Ad populam?
>
> [Joe Dees 5] More like an appeal to authority, something all of us
> here use all the time, yourself included.
>
> [Hermit 6] What a fib. I never consider the mass to be an authoritive
> source for anything. Numbers are no substitute for quality.
>
As I can clearly attest, having seen some of the 'disinterested' links you
have attempted to palm off here as proof of your assertions.
>
> [Joe Dees 5] How are you sure that there is actually a Ka'aba in
> Mecca? Have you seen it? Are the reports of it that you have perused
> been submitted by people you have personally vetted as disinterested
> observers? But then how could they have seen the Ka'aba, when only
> believers in Islam, whom are definitely not disinterested, are allowed
> inside the Great Mosque?
>
> [Hermit 6] Yet non-muslims have visited it and photographs have been
> taken of it. I also know people who have visited it. So the evidence
> is pretty irrefutable. Unlike that for the opinions you have been
> deluging us with.
>
It is also irrefutable that a substantial percentage of the Palestinians
killed in the West bank and Gaza over the past several years have
been executed by fellow Palestinians as collaborators. Denial is not a
river in Egypt.
>
> [Hermit 4] How do you explain the fact that your assertion is at odds
> with figures released by: http://electronicintifada.net/new.html
> http://www.palestinercs.org/
> http://www.israel.org/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ia50
> http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/intifada_fact_sheet_cover.ht
> m Which appear to provide the most complete and detailed reporting?
>
> [Joe Dees 5] I would figure that you would proffer such advocacy sites
> as the Palestine Monitor as 'disinterested."
>
> [Hermit 6] There you go again. Seeing what was not said. Please point
> to where I claimed that I was presenting information from
> "disinterested" sources. That is your strawman. If somebody is
> sufficiently interested to collate and post information, they are
> hardly likely to be "disinterested." So rather I check multiple
> sources, cited from varying viewpoints, and attempt to get back to
> root figures. Over time, I discover which ones are likely to present
> well supported information. So yes, I check both the Israeli
> government site as well as palestinemonitor.org. On the whole, in my
> opinion, the Palestine Monitor is about as reliable a source as the
> Israeli government.
>
That is opinion rather than fact, and everyone on this list knows in what
direction your considered opinions typically tilt.
>
> [Hermit 6] Now, I notice you have still not supported your assertion.
>
I have supported it with a non-Palestinian yet Arab website; your
Palestinian website, when I searched it, did not cite a SINGLE CASE of
the execution of suspected Palestinian collaborators. Kinda hard to
swallow, even with bias for lubricant.
>
> [Hermit 4] What were the charges? What laws were applied? Were they
> executed just for being collaboraters? If so, how is this different
> from e.g. the execution of vichy French who collaborated with the
> German army of occupation after WWII?
>
> [Joe Dees 5] I made no judgments concerning the execution of accused
> Palestinian collaborators by other Palestinians; I just noted that the
> practice is routine and widespread, and comprises a large percentage
> of the total Palestinian deaths, a fact that the Palestinian leaders
> themselves would prefer not to talk about with the world.
>
> [Hermit 6] I suggest that you did no research at all, but simply
> announced this opinion because it supported your prejudii.
>
Pot.
>
> Whatever
> the reasons for executions, formal and informal, they do not appear to
> be included in the figures I have located. And I find it hard to
> believe that the Israeli government would not be creating charts
> showing this if the charge were true - or even arguable.
>
http://www.indian-express.com/ie/daily/20010114/iin14010.html
>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2090520.stm
>
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/nwssat03.htm
>
These are the first three links of 1290 that come up on Google when
one searches using the terms execution, collaborators, palestinian and
israeli, without using quote marks. Are you saying that they're all lying
and only the Divine Hermit is privy to the Gospel Truth? Rein in your
megalomania; if you didn't have your lips stretched over your eyes from
talking, you might be able to see better.
>
> [Joe Dees 3] There are many 'groups' there rather than one, and
> 'groups within groups', just as there are circuits within districts in
> a court system, and various and sundry of these groups have decided,
> apparently around 600 times, to kill suspected collaborators.
>
> [Hermit 4] How is this different from anywhere else? Do all these
> groups represent all the Palestinians? Does
> http://www.christiangallery.com represent you? You are both in the
> US? If not, how does this (further, unfounded) assertion support your
> position?
>
> [Joe Dees 3] Of course not every Palestinian supports the execution of
> Palestinian collaborators, but most of them do; in contrast, I'll bet
> that few Americans support the targeting of abortion doctors for
> murder. And nowhere near 600 of them have been in fact killed - in
> fact, less than ten.
>
> [Hermit 6] You didn't answer the question (as seems usual these days).
> What did you include the above statement. Given that it was unfounded
> and seemingly unsupportable except by more opinion, how did you think
> that it would assist your precarious position? Were you mistakenly
> thinking that if you wrote more that it would appear more weighty?
> Please rethink. As noted above, mass is no substitute for quality.
>
You are perhaps the only living purported english reader who does not
think that "do all these groups represent all the Palestinians" is not
answered by "Of course not every Palestinian supports the execution of
> Palestinian collaborators, but most of them do", or that "How is this different from anywhere else?" and "Does
> http://www.christiangallery.com represent you?" is not answered by "in contrast, I'll bet
> that few Americans support the targeting of abortion doctors for
> murder. And nowhere near 600 of them have been in fact killed - in
> fact, less than ten."
>
Typical ploy, to act dumber and dumber, pretending to understand less
and less, and thus demanding that the other party explain more and
more, or else admit that his/her contention remains unproven, until the
entire semiotic web is implicated. It's a favorite rhetorical parlor
game/trick of "what do you mean when you say"-type analytic
philosophers.
Nevertheless, in spite of such obfuscatory tactics, Palestinian Majdi
Makawi remains contrarily dead, killed as an Israeli collaborator by his
fellow Palestinians. Alam Bani Odeh remains stubbornly dead, also
killed as an Israeli collaborator by his fellow Palestinians. And many,
many more.
> ----
> This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
> Virus BBS.
> <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;thread
> id=25976>
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Wed Sep 25 2002 - 13:28:52 MDT