From: Hermit (hidden@lucifer.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 2002 - 15:14:10 MDT
[Jonathan Davies 1] Dear Combatants, Regardless of exact figures of how many Palestinians have been butchered by their own people, some things have been firmly established by this thread:
<snip>
[rhinoceros 2] You haven't read much of these threads, Jonathan, have you? While a discussion over an exact number may appear somehow lacking merit, many of the general assertions you make here have already been addressed along the way and we already have a much more "real life" picture of the situation than before this discussion.
[Jonathan Davies 3] Your general criticism (that I have not read much of these threads) is mostly true. To say that this topic has generated [insert cliche] of posts would be an understatement. Hundreds of thousands of words and reasoning from some of the cleverest people I know, all going nowhere. This is not a debate, it is a quarrel. I started deleting mails with certain subjects because I could no longer be bothered with the discussion as it had deteriorated to things like the exact proportion of collaborators murdered in the occupied territories.
[Jonathan Davies 3] This was to me a symbolic of the faults with our whole debating structure:
[Jonathan Davies 3] Nothing is taken in good faith, consequently no one feels they can give away anything so the most minor of points are over debated. Hairsplitting and attacking straw men are rife. Huge battles take place on minor points and become little more than contests to see who can find more authorative sources. Since when did appeal to authority become a Virain virtue? There has been an upsurge in personal attacks and other ad hominem type activities. In short there is some shameful nonsense being presented here in an useless and bad tempered manner. It servers to do litlte more than frighten off new members of the church.
[Hermit 4] While your comment on Joes sudden decision to reject generally recognized sources as biased when they disagree with him, yet cite the same sources when it suits him is valid, the rest of your criticism is not. There is reason to "pick hairs." My reply to your diatribe against the "uncivilized Palestinians" and supporting the "civilized Israelis" shows why. There are so many lies, distortions and perversions propagated by Israel and its admirers that it is difficult to pick a path between them. Indeed, in your entire screed there was no single point with which I could find myself in agreement.
[Jonathan Davies 3] If Saint Popper were to read our list he would be appalled.
[Hermit 4] Perhaps. He would probably have, as I am often tempted, said "Fuck it, these assholes are not with responding to" and ignored it. Particularly if he had been called names. The trouble is, that if everyone does that, then, as the US of today shows, the bigots rule, and propaganda and new speak replaces analysis and fact. Let it continue long enough and well-intentioned but poorly informed people like yourself will cite propaganda instead of fact. I don't want that in my world, and will resist it for so long as I can.
[Jonathan Davies 3] His methods were the direct opposite of those used here by most of the debaters (including myself): As Bryan Magee - quoted in Wittegenstein's Poker - points out: "Rather than score through identifying minor faults , Popper would carefully strengthen
his opponenets case before demolishing its core point."
[Hermit 4] Brian Magee missed a point here. Popper always chose his arguments and his opponents carefully. He would walk out of a room rather than argue with fools.
[Jonathan Davies 3] Here we ignore core points and spend weeks nitpicking over incidentals. This is what happens when there is no good faith in a discussion.
[Hermit 4] When the "core point" is poisoned by the fact that a vast slew of "incidental lies" are presented and then used to "prove" that the "evil Palestinians" are attacking the "civilized Israelis" - as you did, then the incidentals become very important indeed.
[Jonathan Davies 3] I think it may be time to re-read "A CODE OF CONDUCT FOR EFFECTIVE RATIONAL DISCUSSION" (
http://www.ukpoliticsmisc.org.uk/usenet_evidence/argument.html)
[Hermit 4] Did you?
<snip>
[Jonathan Davies 3] Did you read the rest of the post by the way? Looks like you got hung up on the first line.
[Hermit 4] I read it. I spent a day responding to it. I hope you read the response. Judging by the fact that you seem to uncritically singing in the "Israel good - Palestinian bad" chorus, I doubt it will do any good, but you might find challenging your preconceptions interesting.
---- This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of Virus BBS. <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=26000>
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