From: joedees@bellsouth.net
Date: Sun Aug 11 2002 - 15:39:32 MDT
On 11 Aug 2002 at 15:14, Hermit wrote:
>
> [Jonathan Davies 1] Dear Combatants, Regardless of exact figures of
> how many Palestinians have been butchered by their own people, some
> things have been firmly established by this thread:
>
> <snip>
>
> [rhinoceros 2] You haven't read much of these threads, Jonathan, have
> you? While a discussion over an exact number may appear somehow
> lacking merit, many of the general assertions you make here have
> already been addressed along the way and we already have a much more
> "real life" picture of the situation than before this discussion.
>
> [Jonathan Davies 3] Your general criticism (that I have not read much
> of these threads) is mostly true. To say that this topic has generated
> [insert cliche] of posts would be an understatement. Hundreds of
> thousands of words and reasoning from some of the cleverest people I
> know, all going nowhere. This is not a debate, it is a quarrel. I
> started deleting mails with certain subjects because I could no longer
> be bothered with the discussion as it had deteriorated to things like
> the exact proportion of collaborators murdered in the occupied
> territories.
>
> [Jonathan Davies 3] This was to me a symbolic of the faults with our
> whole debating structure:
>
> [Jonathan Davies 3] Nothing is taken in good faith, consequently no
> one feels they can give away anything so the most minor of points are
> over debated. Hairsplitting and attacking straw men are rife. Huge
> battles take place on minor points and become little more than
> contests to see who can find more authorative sources. Since when did
> appeal to authority become a Virain virtue? There has been an upsurge
> in personal attacks and other ad hominem type activities. In short
> there is some shameful nonsense being presented here in an useless and
> bad tempered manner. It servers to do litlte more than frighten off
> new members of the church.
>
> [Hermit 4] While your comment on Joes sudden decision to reject
> generally recognized sources as biased when they disagree with him,
> yet cite the same sources when it suits him is valid, the rest of your
> criticism is not.
>
actually, this is exactly what you did after my original cross-post about
600 collaborator deaths, and what you continued to do until rhinocerous
discovered a document with bona fides that even you could not
succcessfully belittle.
>
> There is reason to "pick hairs." My reply to your
> diatribe against the "uncivilized Palestinians" and supporting the
> "civilized Israelis" shows why. There are so many lies, distortions
> and perversions propagated by Israel and its admirers that it is
> difficult to pick a path between them. Indeed, in your entire screed
> there was no single point with which I could find myself in agreement.
>
Your diatribes consist mainly in condemnation of the 'uncivilized
Israelis' and cheerleading for the 'civilized Palestinians".
>
> [Jonathan Davies 3] If Saint Popper were to read our list he would be
> appalled.
>
> [Hermit 4] Perhaps. He would probably have, as I am often tempted,
> said "Fuck it, these assholes are not with responding to" and ignored
> it. Particularly if he had been called names.
>
Exactly what Bill Roh seems to have done with respect to Hermit.
>
> The trouble is, that if
> everyone does that, then, as the US of today shows, the bigots rule,
> and propaganda and new speak replaces analysis and fact. Let it
> continue long enough and well-intentioned but poorly informed people
> like yourself will cite propaganda instead of fact. I don't want that
> in my world, and will resist it for so long as I can.
>
Actually, you have been, on this list at least, a gargantuan contributor to
a drumbeat flood of subsequently discredited propagandistic rantings,
reflexively seeing every fact and opinion that is not skewed to your
Orwellian extreme as bigoted and ignorant.
>
> [Jonathan Davies 3] His methods were the direct opposite of those used
> here by most of the debaters (including myself): As Bryan Magee -
> quoted in Wittegenstein's Poker - points out: "Rather than score
> through identifying minor faults , Popper would carefully strengthen
> his opponenets case before demolishing its core point."
>
> [Hermit 4] Brian Magee missed a point here. Popper always chose his
> arguments and his opponents carefully. He would walk out of a room
> rather than argue with fools.
>
As Bill Roh did, apparently.
>
> [Jonathan Davies 3] Here we ignore core points and spend weeks
> nitpicking over incidentals. This is what happens when there is no
> good faith in a discussion.
>
> [Hermit 4] When the "core point" is poisoned by the fact that a vast
> slew of "incidental lies" are presented and then used to "prove" that
> the "evil Palestinians" are attacking the "civilized Israelis" - as
> you did, then the incidentals become very important indeed.
>
When you begin to pile up your straw men and red herrings like so
much cordwood, it is surpassingly obvious who is the prime malefactor
here.
>
> [Jonathan Davies 3] I think it may be time to re-read "A CODE OF
> CONDUCT FOR EFFECTIVE RATIONAL DISCUSSION" (
> http://www.ukpoliticsmisc.org.uk/usenet_evidence/argument.html)
>
> [Hermit 4] Did you?
>
Of course.
>
> [Jonathan Davies 3] Did you read the rest of the post by the way?
> Looks like you got hung up on the first line.
>
> [Hermit 4] I read it. I spent a day responding to it. I hope you read
> the response. Judging by the fact that you seem to uncritically
> singing in the "Israel good - Palestinian bad" chorus, I doubt it will
> do any good, but you might find challenging your preconceptions
> interesting.
>
It would be interesting to see if Hermit could ever challenge his
'Palestinians good - Israelis bad" preconceptions, but I doubt if he could
muster the mustardseed of objectivity required to even begin.
> ----
> This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
> Virus BBS.
> <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;thread
> id=26000>
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