From: Hermit (hidden@lucifer.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 2002 - 16:53:43 MDT
[Joe Dees 5] <snip a lot of shit>
[Hermit 6] I wasn't writing to you darling. I know that you are not listening, so I'm not wasting my time. But seeing as you want to keep making invalid assertions about me, I'll respond for the benefit of others.
[Hermit 4] While your comment on Joes sudden decision to reject generally recognized sources as biased when they disagree with him, yet cite the same sources when it suits him is valid, the rest of your criticism is not.
[Joe Dees 5] actually, this is exactly what you did after my original cross-post about 600 collaborator deaths, and what you continued to do until rhinocerous discovered a document with bona fides that even you could not succcessfully belittle.
[Hermit 6] Do I have to explain it again. You claimed that 50% of Palestinian deaths were caused by the murder of collaborators. I posted numbers from various sources (PRCS, HRW, Amnesty International) refuting this – all of which you rejected as biased without providing reasons. Rhinoceros posted a B'tselem article about the first intifada (which we were not discussing). You raptured effusively ecstatic, praised the article to the hilt, and asserted that the 600 or so deaths mentioned there proved your contention that 50% of Palestinian casualties were caused by Palestians killing one another off. I posted a refutation based on numbers from B'tselem and HRW, whereupon you proceeded to tear the organizations apart and explained why they were biased and you didn't believe them. I pointed out the discrepancy between comparing numbers from the first intifada with the second and you danced. I pointed out that you were comparing oranges and apples and impeaching youre own sources and you weaseled. I gave up tryin
g to convince you. Everyone else could see you were blowing shit from your ears. It didn't take me to make it self-evident.
[Joe Dees 5] Your diatribes consist mainly in condemnation of the 'uncivilized Israelis' and cheerleading for the 'civilized Palestinians".
[Hermit 6] You are a liar and I challenge you to find one place where I have claimed that the Palestinians are any more "civilized" than the Israelis. Of course, the Israelis are as I proved in my response to Jonathan, not by any modern Western definition civilized at all. Neither for that matter are the Palestinians these days. But the Palestinians have a much better claim in law, in blood and in equity than the Israelis ever will have.
[Hermit 4] Perhaps. He would probably have, as I am often tempted, said "Fuck it, these assholes are not with responding to" and ignored it. Particularly if he had been called names.
[Joe Dees 5] Exactly what Bill Roh seems to have done with respect to Hermit.
[Hermit 6] Nope. The saga is visible in the first few pages of the Current News section of "Serious Business." I suggest you check it out before making up fantasies. Bill got pissed off because, seemingly like you, once his patriotism button was pushed, he couldn't argue a case for shit. Israel had apparently done such a good job of programming him, that he saw negative comments on Israel and the US news as being "anti-American," apparently forgetting that the US once saw the ability to makes such comments as valuable. He resented the fact that I was prepared to take the time to demonstrate that that Israel was at the least unpleasant and uncivilized and that support for Israel and current US policies made the situation worse. He asserted that this did not fairly represent the CoV and insisted that I should write "both sides of the story". As I refused to do that, and he couldn't be bothered to take the time to do so himself, he departed in high dudgeon, having rejected offers to attempt to reach resolution.
[Joe Dees 5] Actually, you have been, on this list at least, a gargantuan contributor to a drumbeat flood of subsequently discredited propagandistic rantings, reflexively seeing every fact and opinion that is not skewed to your Orwellian extreme as bigoted and ignorant.
[Hermit 6] Unsubstantiated uninvited and unpaid opinion Joe. And worth what all such opinion is.
[Hermit 4] Brian Magee missed a point here. Popper always chose his arguments and his opponents carefully. He would walk out of a room rather than argue with fools.
[Joe Dees 5] As Bill Roh did, apparently.
[Hermit 6] Repeating yourself now? Anyone can choose to leave. Or stay. The CoV will continue. It doesn't depend on individuals. Attempting to make me feel guilty about this, will not work. And asserting that, “you drove him away”, will not persuade anyone with the ability to think. Try another tack. This one smells funny.
[Joe Dees 5] When you begin to pile up your straw men and red herrings like so much cordwood, it is surpassingly obvious who is the prime malefactor
[Hermit 6] In your opinion. But when you end each argument calling people names, telling lies, impeaching your own sources, making disparaging remarks instead of presenting facts, then I draw my own conclusions, which differ from yours - and I'm sure others do the same. The difference between you and I seems to be that I don't care what others think - and you, quite evidently do.
[Hermit 4] I read it. I spent a day responding to it. I hope you read the response. Judging by the fact that you seem to uncritically singing in the "Israel good - Palestinian bad" chorus, I doubt it will do any good, but you might find challenging your preconceptions interesting.
[Joe Dees 5] It would be interesting to see if Hermit could ever challenge his 'Palestinians good - Israelis bad" preconceptions, but I doubt if he could muster the mustardseed of objectivity required to even begin.
[Hermit 6] Once Joe Dees could have seen that the question of "good" and "bad" was largely irrelevant when it comes to matters of state. Even "bad” and "worse," as applies in the Israeli situation, doesn’t matter much. The questions have to be addressed as matters of equity, law and effectiveness - as good and bad depends on a perspective, which is not present. Joe Dees, in common with many Americans appears to be so tied up in moral agonizing that he has lost sight of the fact that any interactions which do not achieve those objectives are doomed to fail. And usually, men being what they are, this results in people dying to no purpose.
---- This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of Virus BBS. <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=26000>
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