From: Jonathan Davis (jonathan.davis@lineone.net)
Date: Sun Aug 11 2002 - 17:49:18 MDT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hermit" <hidden@lucifer.com>
To: <virus@lucifer.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 11:53 PM
Subject: Re: virus: Dear Hermit: You Constitutionally Can't Admit When You
Lose
SNIP
> [Hermit 6] Do I have to explain it again. You claimed that 50% of
Palestinian deaths were caused by the murder of collaborators. I posted
numbers from various >sources (PRCS, HRW, Amnesty International) refuting
this - all of which you rejected as biased without providing reasons.
Rhinoceros posted a B'tselem article >about the first intifada (which we
were not discussing). You raptured effusively ecstatic, praised the article
to the hilt, and asserted that the 600 or so deaths >mentioned there proved
your contention that 50% of Palestinian casualties were caused by Palestians
killing one another off. I posted a refutation based on >numbers from
B'tselem and HRW, whereupon you proceeded to tear the organizations apart
and explained why they were biased and you didn't believe them. I >pointed
out the discrepancy between comparing numbers from the first intifada with
the second and you danced. I pointed out that you were comparing oranges
>and apples and impeaching youre own sources! and you weaseled. I gave up
trying to convince you. Everyone else could see you were blowing shit from
your >ears. It didn't take me to make it self-evident.
Assuming you are correct, and a mere 30% of Palestinian deaths were
self-inflicted - does it change the core point? Nope. The Palestinian
Authority and the various terrorist/gangsters inflict as much if not more
misery on their people that any Israeli occupation force.
> [Joe Dees 5] Your diatribes consist mainly in condemnation of the
'uncivilized Israelis' and cheerleading for the 'civilized Palestinians".
>
> [Hermit 6] You are a liar and I challenge you to find one place where I
have claimed that the Palestinians are any more "civilized" than the
Israelis.
Indeed. You just claim the Israelis are beastly and uncivilised whilst ignor
ing the Palestinians and the fact that Israeli is at war in an unprecedented
conflict.
>Of course, the Israelis are as I proved in my response to Jonathan, not by
any modern Western definition civilized at all.
Ahh..here we go...
>Neither for that matter are the Palestinians these days.
You bet.
>But
Damn, just when I saw a breakthrough..
>the Palestinians have a much better claim in law, in blood and in equity
than the Israelis ever will have.
Bollox. They have a better claim in blood to the title of "The benighted" -
but that is it.
> [Hermit 4] Perhaps. He would probably have, as I am often tempted, said
"Fuck it, these assholes are not with responding to" and ignored it.
Particularly if he >had been called names.
>
> [Joe Dees 5] Exactly what Bill Roh seems to have done with respect to
Hermit.
>
> [Hermit 6] Nope. The saga is visible in the first few pages of the Current
News section of "Serious Business." I suggest you check it out before making
up >antasies. Bill got pissed off because, seemingly like you, once his
patriotism button was pushed, he couldn't argue a case for shit.
There is no need for this Herm. You are letting yourself own with this sort
of bitterness.
>Israel had apparently done such a good job of programming him, that he saw
negative comments on Israel and the US news as being "anti-American,"
apparently >forgetting that the US once saw the ability to makes such
comments as valuable.
I doubt this is fair. Your contempt drips out of this passage: He was
programmed...come on.
>He resented the fact that I was prepared to take the time to demonstrate
that that Israel was at the least unpleasant and uncivilized
Ahem, you tried to argue this and you have failed so far to convince me, or
Joe, or Bill and perhaps many others. Time for a radical rethink perhaps?
>and that support for Israel and current US policies made the situation
worse. He asserted that this did not fairly represent the CoV and insisted
that I should write >both sides of the story". As I refused to do that, and
he couldn't be bothered to take the time to do so himself, he departed in
high dudgeon, having rejected offers >o attempt to reach resolution.
Because you are an actor in this drama it is probably best if you leave the
matter alone and let David try an sort out that most unfortunate spat.
>
> [Joe Dees 5] Actually, you have been, on this list at least, a gargantuan
contributor to a drumbeat flood of subsequently discredited propagandistic
rantings, >reflexively seeing every fact and opinion that is not skewed to
your Orwellian extreme as bigoted and ignorant.
>
> [Hermit 6] Unsubstantiated uninvited and unpaid opinion Joe. And worth
what all such opinion is.
You and Joe have been leveling this sort of unnecessary charge at each
other. I would advise you both to stop the personal stuff.
>
> [Hermit 4] Brian Magee missed a point here. Popper always chose his
arguments and his opponents carefully. He would walk out of a room rather
than argue >with fools.
>
> [Joe Dees 5] As Bill Roh did, apparently.
>
> [Hermit 6] Repeating yourself now? Anyone can choose to leave. Or stay.
The CoV will continue. It doesn't depend on individuals. Attempting to make
me feel >guilty about this, will not work. And asserting that, "you drove
him away", will not persuade anyone with the ability to think. Try another
tack. This one smells >funny.
True. There is no point is dredging up the row with Bill. I hope it is
resolved soon.
>
> [Joe Dees 5] When you begin to pile up your straw men and red herrings
like so much cordwood, it is surpassingly obvious who is the prime
malefactor
>
> [Hermit 6] In your opinion. But when you end each argument calling people
names, telling lies, impeaching your own sources, making disparaging remarks
instead >of presenting facts, then I draw my own conclusions, which differ
from yours
You call people names too. Neither of you tell lies. You both appeal to
authority - which we know is a fallacy. As for disparaging remarks you are
definitely equally guilty there.
> - and I'm sure others do the same. The difference between you and I seems
to be that I don't care what others think - and you, quite evidently do.
Come now Hermit. You cannot know if Joe gives a damn or not what people
think. He has fought very unpopular positions not at all in keeping wit the
charge of caring what people think. As for you claim that you are
unconcerned what people think of you - is that because you do not respect
their opinions or because you know better than everyone? :)
>
> [Hermit 4] I read it. I spent a day responding to it. I hope you read the
response. Judging by the fact that you seem to uncritically singing in the
"Israel good - Palestinian bad" chorus, I doubt it will do any good, but you
might find challenging your preconceptions interesting.
>
> [Joe Dees 5] It would be interesting to see if Hermit could ever challenge
his 'Palestinians good - Israelis bad" preconceptions, but I doubt if he
could muster the mustards of objectivity required to even begin.
>
> [Hermit 6] Once Joe Dees could have seen that the question of "good" and
"bad" was largely irrelevant when it comes to matters of state.
Now we get somewhere! I agree with you here (sort of).
>Even "bad" and "worse," as applies in the Israeli situation, doesn't matter
much.
Yet it is invoked to drum up support for either side.
>The questions have to be addressed as matters of equity, law and
effectiveness - as good and bad depends on a perspective, which is not
present.
Indeed. Good point my friend. Please keep it up.
>Joe Dees, in common with many Americans appears to be so tied up in moral
agonizing that he has
Here are those personal attacks and disparaging comments you were talking
about earlier.
>lost sight of the fact that any interactions which do not achieve those
objectives are doomed to fail. And usually, men being what they are, this
results in people >dying to no purpose.
Here at the very end you have indicated a return to the type of incisive and
independent thinking that I so admire in you.
Onwards and upwards comrades. We will laugh about these fights one day.
Kind regards
Jonathan
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Wed Sep 25 2002 - 13:28:52 MDT