From: Hermit (hidden@lucifer.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 2002 - 18:13:55 MDT
[Hermit 4] While your comment on Joes sudden decision to reject generally recognized sources as biased when they disagree with him, yet cite the same sources when it suits him is valid, the rest of your criticism is not.
[Jonathan Davis 5] My comments apply to most of us including you.
[Hermit 6] Ah, please cite examples. I have difficulty with being called names in their absense.
[Hermit 4] There is reason to "pick hairs." My reply to your diatribe against the "uncivilized Palestinians" and supporting the "civilized Israelis" shows why.
[Jonathan Davis 5] Does it? How?
[Hermit 6] Read it first. If you still want to know why after that, ask specific questions.
[Hermit 4] There are so many lies, distortions and perversions propagated by Israel and its admirers that it is difficult to pick a path between them. Indeed, in your entire screed there was no single point with which I could find myself in agreement.
[Jonathan Davis 5] There are so many lies, distortions and perversions propagated by Palestinians and their apologists that it is difficult to pick a path between them. Indeed, in your screeds there is seldom a single point with which I can find myself in agreement on this issue.
[Hermit 6] The difference is that I actually took the time out to attempt to show why I hold the opinions I do. You didn't read it and instead attempt to rely on ridicule in the absense of facts.
[Jonathan Davies 3] If Saint Popper were to read our list he would be
appalled.
[Hermit 4] Perhaps. He would probably have, as I am often tempted, said "Fuck it, these assholes are not with responding to" and ignored it.
Particularly if he had been called names.
[Jonathan Davis 5] If you object to the practice why do you do it then?
[Hermit 6] As to fucking off, I expalined below. As to calling names, I always attempt to respond in kind, and won't ignore or help others who pretend - to themselves or the audience - that their "fucking shovels" are "spades".
[Hermit 4] The trouble is, that if everyone does that, then, as the US of today shows, the bigots rule, and propaganda and new speak replaces analysis and fact.
[Jonathan Davis 5] Pravda, bye the way, is the Russian equivalent of USA Today.
[Hermit 6] I know what Pravda is - and is not. Which is why it is a good source for balance.
[Hermit 4] Let it continue long enough and well-intentioned but poorly informed people like yourself will cite propaganda instead of fact.
[Jonathan Davis 5] LOL! See, you are even calling me names now. Am I really poorly informed?
[Hermit 6] I was not calling you names at all and yes, you really are poorly inforrmed. See my original response before commenting further or you will end up looking silly.
[Jonathan Davis 5] Remember this is me Hermit, Jonathan. Please give an example of where I have quoted propaganda.
[Hermit 6] In your original "anti-Palestinian" article.
[Hermit 4] I don't want that in my world, and will resist it for so long as I can.
[Jonathan Davis 5] Good for you. Why not try an be gracious and admit that when you fail to convince people of your view it is not that they are 'poorly informed' but you may be wrong. You may be racked with prejudices and bigotries. You certainly have difficulty remaining polite to those who disagree with you - even your pals get nailed for daring to disagree.
[Hermit 6] When people clearly have no idea of the history of an issue and make bigoted comments about the relative worth of the contestants, then they are poorly informed. I very much doubt that I am "racked with prejudices and bigotries." I dislike everyone more or less equally, and reserve the majority of my scorn for muddy thinking and hypocracy. Honest disagreement is something else again. Many situations are too tangled for incisiveness, but to pretend that this applies to all situations is ridiculous.
[Jonathan Davies 3] His methods were the direct opposite of those used
here by most of the debaters (including myself): As Bryan Magee - quoted in Wittegenstein's Poker - points out: "Rather than score through identifying minor faults , Popper would carefully strengthen his opponents case before demolishing its core point."
[Hermit 4] Brian Magee missed a point here. Popper always chose his
arguments and his opponents carefully. He would walk out of a room rather than argue with fools.
[Jonathan Davies 5] Actually this is not what I have read about Popper. Descriptions of Popper remind me of you sometimes. Let me quote from the book I am sending you soon. Magee states that he was struck by "an intellectual aggressiveness such as I had never encountered before. Everything was pursued beyond the limits of acceptable conversation...In practice it meant trying to subjugate people." The whole of chapter 15 of Wittgenstein's Poker is dedicated to to Poppers and how he argued with anyone and everyone. He particularly detested fools and people who tried to impress - but he would argue and argue and argue until they were subjugated.
[Hermit 6] On a number of occasions he actually said the above or words to the effect and stormed out of a meeting or lecture theatre. And I have no difficulty with appearing as a Popper - as aggressive that he could be with fools and frauds - but the portrayals you cite are I think incorrect in one aspect - it was not subjudication that he wanted. It was clarity and the ability to support an opinion. If you could do that he would grant respect even if he disagreed. If you couldn't you were toast even if you agreed with him.
[Jonathan Davies 3] Here we ignore core points and spend weeks nitpicking over incidentals. This is what happens when there is no good faith in a discussion.
[Hermit 4] When the "core point" is poisoned by the fact that a vast slew
of "incidental lies"are presented and then used to "prove" that the "evil Palestinians" are attacking the "civilized Israelis" - as you did, then the incidentals become very important indeed.
[Jonathan Davies 5] It would appear you are accusing me of lying, which is a grave charge. Perhaps you will back it up with some examples? I did not label the Palestinians evil - you just have. I did however make it clear I consider the Israelis to be vastly superior to the Palestinians in terms of their behaviour in their conflict and their relative levels of civilizational development.
[Hermit 6] Read again, in context. I had already said that I think you are ill-informed and presented propaganda as fact. I did not assert that the "incidental lies" were yours, simply that you presented them and used them in fabricating your porranger of vitriol. As for your claim here, I regret, I disagree. You are lying now. Here are your own words from
["Re: virus: Dear Hermit: You Constitutionally Can't Admit When You Lose", Reply 15, Jonathan Davis, 2002-08-10] (http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=26000;start=15)
"On the one hand you have a prosperous multicultural democracy threatened by annihilation and trying to deal with an unprecedented murders assault on its existence. On the other a barbaric quasi-medieval fiefdom/dictatorship that is an operational base for some of the most ruthless terrorists in the world."
And:
"One is a beacon of civilization and rational restraint, the other is one of the worst examples of the excess of Islamist fanaticism and the utter primitiveness of much of the Islamic world."
And:
"The civilised person agrees to restraint is then attacked by an uncivilised person who has not - in the ensuing unseemly uncivilized and brutal fight it is forgotten that it was Mr Civilised who was attacked by Mr Savage and instead we have people screech "MrCivilised should know better! Mr Civilised to agreed not to fight like this!"
And:
"What we are witnessing in Israeli is how a decent democratic and civilised nation state reacts to a murderous assault by a ruthless and primitive enemy."
[Jonathan Davies 3] I think it may be time to re-read "A CODE OF CONDUCT FOR EFFECTIVE RATIONAL DISCUSSION" ( http://www.ukpoliticsmisc.org.uk/usenet_evidence/argument.html)
[Hermit 4] Did you?
[Jonathan Davies 5] Of course.
[Hermit 6] :-)
<snip>
[Jonathan Davies 3] Did you read the rest of the post by the way? Looks
like you got hung up on the first line.
[Hermit 4] I read it. I spent a day responding to it. I hope you read the
response.
[Jonathan Davies 5] Where is it? On the BBS? I will look for it on the morrow.
[Hermit 6] As noted in my original announcement it is at ["Re: virus: Dear Hermit: You Constitutionally Can't Admit When You Lose", Reply 25, Hermit, 2002-08-10] (http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=26000;start=15)
[Hermit 4] Judging by the fact that you seem to uncritically singing in the "Israel good - > Palestinian bad" chorus, I doubt it will do any good, but you might find challenging your preconceptions interesting.
[Jonathan Davies 5] Judging by the fact that you have been uncritically singing in the "Israel bad - >Palestinians good" chorus for as long as I have known you without a single exception, I doubt it will do any good my trying to challenge your preconceptions on this matter.
[Hermit 6] Are you being deliberately obtuse, or is there some problem with my articulation? Your claim is completely counter to "Palestinians Bad, Israelis Worse!" which is a direct consequence of my repeated condemnation of terror by states and individuals. I hadn't thought it left much scope for error as both sides are guilty of terrorism, the Israelis just being better at achieving volumes. In addition, the Palestinians have equity and law on their side when not indulging in terrorism. While the Israelis do not.
[Hermit 6] I avoid attributing good and evil to the situation, not just because it is too subjective but also, seeing that the world has repeatedly denied the Palestinians alternate venues in which to seek redress, and has not fulfilled its obligations to uphold the Charter of the UN or treaties to which Israel has ascribed, we are all as guilty of denying the Palestinians justice and hope as the Israelis. The Israelis are just the all too willing instruments of genocide.
[Hermit 6] Before you reply to this, please read my previous response to you.
Hermit
---- This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of Virus BBS. <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=26000>
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