From: Jonathan Davis (jonathan.davis@lineone.net)
Date: Thu May 06 2004 - 12:44:23 MDT
Now you have heard of the sources you can learn something from them. I refer
to them for my position on WMDs (an issue I think is a red herring).
I did not claim you were spiteful. I asked a question. That said, I envision
the Iraqi Governing Council taking on June 30th. I expect Jihadis and Syrian
insurgents to do their best to disrupt the process of normalisation for
Iraq. I expect them to fail. To speak of our failure is absurd, the fight is
not nearly over.
You may have been wrong about WMD but I was not. I have said all along
there is a threat, I maintain there was. That we have not discovered where
the weapons went does not mean they did not exist (in fact we know for
certain they existed) but merely they have been hidden, destroyed or moved
out of Iraq.
For the record, I am not just *like* a right wing wacko, right wing wackos
source their ideas and inspiration from me! Invoking the old "you must be
insane to argue with me", however, is a bit lame. I am a sinner, sure, but
so are we all.
You may have imagined that Saddam had chemical shells ready to fire on the
front lines. I however was sceptical of those sorts of intelligence claims
and maintained that Saddam probably had a program of some sort - labs,
assembling know how etc. - combined with the money and will to make it
happen if he chose meaning he may at some point develop and use such
weapons. That was not an acceptable position in my opinion (and President
Bush's apparently). I also wanted (and want) to know what happened to the
chemical weapon stockpiles the Weapon Inspectors left behind. I expect these
will turn up at a Syrian backed terrorist atrocity before too long.
If Bush had said that "I am not absolutely certain about WMD" and not gone
to war and Hussein did have them and used them on say Israel, provoking a
nuclear response, then he would have been blamed for ignoring repeated and
pressing intelligence assessments. He would have been denounced as
irresponsible and blamed for not acting on a threat. Is this not what he is
being blamed for doing at the 9/11 commission? Not acting on threats?
Iraq will be fine. These are early days. I will be ribbing you about these
breathless doomsaying in years to come, just as I still rib those who
predicted millions of dead Afghan refugees etc in the Afghan war.
Regards
Limbic
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Jake Sapiens
Sent: 06 May 2004 17:00
To: virus
Subject: RE: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
I have never heard of these source you provide. The first website as best I
can tell is rabidly anti-Kerry by the creative highly slanted polls in the
margins in which all possible answers are designed to disparage Kerry's
military service. In any case the story your linked was no longer available
according to the site itself. Never heard of the other one either, and
considering that its claims were made back in February, it seems shocking
that such astounding revelations never made it to more reputable sources in
over three months . . . . well not really all that shocking. For the rest
of us dealing with realty, we live in that universe where US weapons
inspectors have found no weapons of mass destruction or any evidence of
their recent existence within Iraq during the lead up to the war.
As for your claims of my spite, that's just more of your fantasy/denial.
It has nothing to do with my alleged hope for failure, failure is already on
us. If you envision a peaceful hand over of power at the end of next month
as promised, you are clearly delusional and haven't been paying attention.
Far from wishing defeat, I like you, was clearly convinced that Saddam had
WMD's prior to the invasion. In fact for me it was the only reason that
kept me from joining anti war activities. Obviously I was wrong, however,
and my opinions do change when relevant facts do. I see that you, like the
right wing wackos who inhabit our AM radio bandwidths believe that having
unwavering opinions, especially on war, is a good thing. In the Church of
the Virus we have identified this unreasonable/delusional intransigence as
the senselessness of dogmatism.
-Jake
> [Original Message]
> From: Jonathan Davis <jonathan.davis@lineone.net>
> To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> Date: 05/06/2004 2:56:56 AM
> Subject: RE: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
>
> Hi Jake,
>
> Here is a recent article that disputes your claims that "we" did not
> find "any evidence of WMD in Iraq" .
>
>
http://www.insightmag.com/news/2004/05/11/World/Investigative.Reportsaddams.
> Wmd.Have.Been.Found-670120.shtml
>
> Also, just briefly, on the matter of WMD to Syria, check out this
> sample
> article:
>
> http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=780
>
> Would you like to discuss the other reasons we went to war? I also
> note
that
> no one is answering my simple question - would they prefer it that
> Saddam Hussein was still in power today. Also, given many people
> apparent
hostility
> to the US occupation, what are your suggested alternatives and do you
think
> continued insurrection is the best way of ending the occupation to the
best
> outcome?
>
> Or is this all just about "damn you went to war even though I objected
> and now I hope you fail" - that is, spite.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On
> Behalf
Of
> Jake Sapiens
> Sent: 06 May 2004 09:32
> To: virus
> Subject: RE: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
>
> I don't know from what planet you got the idea that we found any
> evidence
of
> WMD in Iraq, or that any such WMD were shipped off to Syria. I HAVE
> heard Rush Limabaugh hopefully speculating that something like that
happened.
> Like him, your opinions on this seem much more immutable than the
> speculations you offer in support of them. Damn all the evidence,
> somehow there were WMD's. Of course you may be unconcerned either
> way, but this
was
> the reason the Bush administration most strongly advocated for
> invading
Iraq
> against the better judgment of most of our allies.
>
> >snip<
>
> > Just for the record, Kalkor and Jake what do you recommend as the
> > solution to the Iraq situation? US pullout? Reinstatement of Saddam?
> > Handing over
> to
> > Al Sadr?
>
> With current US leadership I don't see any good solution in sight.
> The
way
> this administration has squandered its credibility with most of our
closest
> allies, the only way I see that they can end this would be a
> unilateral
and
> catastrophic US pullout. This of course would be terrible for the
> Iraqis, but probably no worse than they have endured for decades
> anyway. If we
get
> new US leadership, we will probably be in a better position to attempt
> a happier ending with the aid of allies who won't currently bother
> risking their own credibility with this current US administration.
> The real question is do we want to proceed alone or with help? Like a
> one trick pony, the Bush administration has so consistently and so
> pre-emptively chosen unilateralism to the point that they have burned
> all bridges to
real
> diplomacy, not that they show any interest in actually trying that now
> anyway. The more alone we are in Iraq regardless of our military
strength,
> the more disappointing the experiment in democracy will become. I
> think
the
> best we can reasonably hope for in a Bush future would be an Islamic
> Iraqi state like Iran.
>
> >snip<
>
> > Let's stop gloating at every setback and roaring "I told you so" so
> > very prematurely about circumstances long anticipated and in the
> > scheme of
> things
> > minor setbacks agitated by countries who are trying to divert
> > attention
> from
> > the WMD programs.
> >
> > Iraq has to work. If it fails it will not be anyone's fault by the
> > tribal mafia/Mujahedin/Islamist alliance, the hostile western and
> > Arab press and those of you who continue to take out your anger at
> > being impotent to stop the war by supporting the ruining of the peace.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Limbic
>
> I see. Once again anybody who opposes the current admnistration is an
> angry, impotent, unpatriotic person hoping that peace will fail and
> the economy will collapse. Yep, that's what godless liberal
> babykillers like
me
> pray for every night. What an amazing job of uncovering my secret
political
> motivations!
>
> Yet again the Bush apologists who cannot handle the message, would
> simply prefer to destroy the conversation rather than deal with facts
> that have become fairly obvious to the rest of the world. It saddens
> me to see you participating so eagerly in this intellectual dishonesty.
>
> -Jake
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Jonathan Davis <jonathan.davis@lineone.net>
> > To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> > Date: 05/05/2004 4:33:13 PM
> > Subject: RE: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
> >
> > If by Bush apologist you mean people like me, then you are right
> > about one
> > thing: my opinions have not changed one whit.
> >
> > The reasons for going to war are as sound as ever, even with the
> > benefit
> of
> > 20:20 hindsight. Even what I considered one of the lower order good
> reasons
> > (of many) - the WMD *threat* - was real and increasingly we see
> > evidence
> of
> > what happened to Saddam's arsenal (it went to Syria) and there are
> > studiously under-reported discoveries of his nuclear and weapons
> > program almost every day.
> >
> > Iranian and Syrian backed insurrections are causing a few problems,
> > but
> the
> > military response has be nothing short of brilliant. The situation
> > in troubled but utterly winnable. If people back home have courage,
> > determination and good will.
> >
> > I this forum, politically, we get a self-reinforcing cycle of
> > anti-Bush
> and
> > anti-War opining that whilst emboldening rabid anti-Semites bigots
> > like
> Jei
> > and spurring my esteemed fellows Jake and Kalkor to harsh claims, is
> mostly
> > unbalanced and based on bunk.
> >
> > For quality analysis of what I going on in Iraq, why not try
> > dispassionate and balanced commentary? Try:
> >
> > http://belmontclub.blogspot.com/
> >
> > I also recommend the absolutely brilliant Victor Davis Hanson. Here
> > are
> two
> > latest essays:
> >
> > What the President Might Say
> > http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200404300833.asp
> >
> > Myth or Reality?
> > Will Iraq work? That's up to us.
> > http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200404230833.asp
> >
> > His recent essay on the Iraqi torture scandal is magnificent. He
> concludes:
> >
> > "If a small number of soldiers has transgressed, then let us punish
> > them severely, as well as the officers who either ordered or ignored
> > such reprehensible behaviour. But let us also accept that the
> > reaction to this incident is indicative of larger moral asymmetries
> > that are the burdens of the West when it goes to war, a culture that
> > so often equates the understandable absence of perfection, either
> > moral, political, or
> military,
> > with abject failure -- a fact not lost on our enemies.
> >
> > We have seen terrible things since September 11 -- monotonous public
> > executions, taped decapitations, videos of brutalized hostages,
> > diplomats gunned down, aid workers riddled with bullets, children's
> > bodies blown
> apart
> > by improvised explosive devices, nuts, bolts and rat poison added to
> suicide
> > bombs -- most under either the sponsorship of some autocratic Middle
> Eastern
> > governments or of terrorist cabals that could not exist without at
> > least
> the
> > tacit support of thousands in the Arab street.
> >
> > So as we in America address the moral inadequacies of a handful of
> > our soldiers, let those in the Middle East take heart from our own
> > necessary
> and
> > stern democratic inquiries and audits, and thus at last now apply
> > the same standards of accountability to tens of thousands, far more
> > culpable, of their own."
> >
> > http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/3955
> >
> >
> >
> > Just for the record, Kalkor and Jake what do you recommend as the
> > solution to the Iraq situation? US pullout? Reinstatement of Saddam?
> > Handing over
> to
> > Al Sadr?
> >
> > I suggest you heed the UN representative to Iraq :
> >
> > "A key question is whether a credible political process is even
> > viable
> under
> > such circumstances [Limbic notes this he refers to recent
> > insurrection and strife]. It is important to note, in this context,
> > that the limited task
> we
> > are presently engaged in - the formation of an administration to
> > assume responsibility as of 30 June - is part of a much broader
> > political
> process,
> > and that this political process has to be seen against the
> > background of
> the
> > realities that made it necessary: namely, war and occupation and,
> > before that, a very harsh and brutal regime, and severe, even
> > crippling
> sanctions,
> > not to mention two earlier devastating and costly wars.
> >
> > The political process aims at restoring Iraqi sovereignty and
> independence,
> > preserving the country's unity and territorial integrity, and making
> > the Iraqi people truly the masters of their own destiny, with the
> > political system of their choice and control over their own natural
> resources.
> >
> > So: Is it possible for the process to proceed under such circumstances?
> Will
> > it be viable? Will it be credible? I put it to you and the Council, Mr.
> > President, that *there is in fact no alternative but to find a way
> > of
> making
> > the process viable and credible*. Between security on the one hand,
> > and
> the
> > end of occupation, the restoration of sovereignty and independence
> > and the advent of a legitimate Iraqi government and political regime
> > on the other, there is a dialectical link which is obvious. Security
> > is essential for
> the
> > process to be completed. A viable political process is no panacea.
> > It is a powerful contributing factor to security; hence, the
> > importance for a credible Iraqi Government to be in place and lead
> > the way in the
> completion
> > of the next phase of the political process. In the end, the solution
> > to Iraq's problems will have to come from the Iraqis themselves. The
> > sooner a credible Iraqi government is in place to lead the way, the
> > better, especially because the absence of such a sovereign
> > government is part of
> the
> > problem in the first place."
> >
> > http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocusnewsiraq1.asp?NewsID=730&sID=19
> >
> > Let's stop gloating at every setback and roaring "I told you so" so
> > very prematurely about circumstances long anticipated and in the
> > scheme of
> things
> > minor setbacks agitated by countries who are trying to divert
> > attention
> from
> > the WMD programs.
> >
> > Iraq has to work. If it fails it will not be anyone's fault by the
> > tribal mafia/Mujahedin/Islamist alliance, the hostile western and
> > Arab press and those of you who continue to take out your anger at
> > being impotent to stop the war by supporting the ruining of the peace.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Limbic
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On
> > Behalf
> Of
> > Blunderov
> > Sent: 05 May 2004 21:32
> > To: virus@lucifer.com
> > Subject: RE: virus: War & Peace / Rethinking Iraq
> >
> > Jake Sapiens
> > Sent: 05 May 2004 10:58 PM
> >
> > It's generally much more easy and comfortable to attack a source
> > that says "I told you so", rather than admit that you were
> > completely or almost completely wrong. Habitual Bush apologists
> > seem to have no lack of irrational denial to call upon in these
> > situations. I wouldn't expect
> even
> > a bare modicum of intellectual honesty from them from here on out
> > now that almost all of their rationalizations have gone up in
> > delusional
> smoke.
> > It's a pretty common human response, however, so I wouldn't
> > automatically write them all off as anything less than common
> > without
> knowing more.
> > Disillusion is an ugly process that often has no concern for honesty
> > or reality unless and until it has run its course.
> >
> > [Blunderov] The whole Iraq scenario is a hideous fiasco and now the
> > whole world appears to be seething with bombs in public places.
> > (Hope the Rhino
> is
> > safe.)
> >
> > At least Jubagulord made it out OK.
> >
> > 'Cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of war'. Havoc it certainly is and
> > so it looks to remain.
> >
> > Gloomily
> >
> >
> > ---
> > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
> > <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
> >
> > ---
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>
>
> --- Jake Sapiens
> --- every1hz@earthlink.net
> --- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
>
>
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--- Jake Sapiens
--- every1hz@earthlink.net
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